AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

You told me to go back to Reddit, remember? What were you saying there? I know what it usually means on FWR, so this disingenuous throwback is silly.

It is amusing that you post about "compassionate empathetic debate" when TRAs started with #Nodebate and the vast majority of forums banned anyone that posted anything negative about the trans lobby.

MN got the reputation for being transphobic, not because it is, but because it was one of the very few forums that allowed discussion on the topic, and this is what the OP and others see as vile.

Lots of people saying "there's no point trying to argue from a self-id trans perspective as no-one listens" but having been on many FWR threads over the years that's utterly untrue.

You don't argue because you either can't articulate your position or because when you're asked a basic question about your own position - such as, 'are there any differences whatsoever between women and men, and if so can you give an example of one because saying that both are "male and female adults" seems confusing and inconsistent' - you never want to explicitly say because you realise it probably looks disgustingly sexist.

And if you think that trans people just want to change sex then you haven't kept up. It's about gender identity feelings determining whether you're a man or woman and not sex.

@Dancingintherainxxx

I'm a physician in another country in Europe.

Do you believe that TWAW? as its an odd take for a physician to have and that that you would have a better understanding of biology.

I think it's well known in the EU how transphobic the UK is in general.

You think but you don't know.

People like JK Rowling who 1) isn't trans and 2) isn't a doctor think they have the right to speak on these matters.

So she shouldn't be allowed to speak up about women's rights? why not?

The constant comment I see is that it's threatening to womanhood to have trans women 😂 just laughable. My womanhood had nothing to do with anyone else let alone trans people .

As a physician I would hope that your comprehension skills were better, and would understand why women are against the erasure of terms such as mother, breast feeding, and the inclusion of things like menstruating person etc.

The bathroom comments too! If anyone was to assault someone, they'll do it. They don't need a bathroom to.

Then ask those transwomen that use bathrooms (and other single sex spaces) to assault women,

People fear what they do not understand.

People understand that transwomen are men. Its not a hard concept to understand.

Trans ally here. I believe trans women are women

You are either saying that TW are female, which is untrue, or that "woman" means something else which you are unable to say. What one factor is common to all women and to no men?

We had one trans person say there was a woman personality type that was different from a man's (imagine the most stereotypical characteristics you can) - is that what you mean, and can to not see why many women might not agree?

No, mumsnet has purposely made it a safe space for FEMINISTS to discuss PRO WOMEN views. If you see WOMENS RIGHTS as 'anti trans' (I think you really mean and want to say anti men, but you know you'll look bad so use 'trans'), then that says far more about you and your dismissal of the feminist struggle than it does about us, @LindtCurves . Maybe have a long hard look at yourself and ask yourself why you call womens rights 'anti trans' and why you're shitting on all the achievements our foremother feminists fought soooo hard for, just because some men found a loophole.

@Imdunfer You are quite uninformed on this, women can sex a male to 99% success rate, actual university studies have shown this. It is not about "feminine" appearance. It's about SKELETAL STRUCTURE. It's about the male skull/male jaw, the adams apple, the wider philtrum. The gait, as well as lack of hips, feet/hand size and limb length.

It has abso-lute-ly NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'feminine appearance'. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. That is where you've gone wrong.

https://www.theknownheretic.com/p/instinct-sos-sex-recognition

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/brains-hard-wired-recognize-opposite-sex/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004269892200133X

Blah blah blah. People can believe whatever they want. They can pretend to be whatever they want.

What you can't do is force other people to believe what you want or play pretend along with you.

Humans can't change sex. Children need to be protected. And most women distrust most men for very good reasons.

Especially the type of man who would pretend to be something he is not, to gain access to somewhere he should not be.

It isn't rocket science, it's biology.

So keep blahing away, and shouting about nonsense, the louder you get the more people see just how absurd the situation has gotten and the more reality and normality will reassert itself.

@Freudianflip Yes, most of us women rightly don't want to be gaslit to deny what our eyes see and our lived experience as the oppressed sex class to MIS-SEX a male in order to be an unwilling cosplay to a fetish. As a rape survivor, I refuse to be gaslit to call my rapist a 'she'. Just as I would refuse to call Rachel Dolezal an African American.

It is not kind or polite to gaslit women to mis-sex men. I have no problems using chosen names, but I will NOT be gaslit to mis-sex a man. Unless you're a complete misogynist, you should understand that.

Btw, most of us have worked with transwomen or have experience. It's the FASTEST WAY to become a 'terf'. Guaranteed. And we don't need to 'know a male' to know he doesn't belong in female spaces.

This question is asked at least 10 times a week on this site. 1. Transmen are FEMALE, so hence no threat to us. 2. We know a male from a female. Transmen look like tiny hairy versions of men, but they do not look like men. We know the difference. 3. We have said repeatedly we have no problems with them in our spaces, as they are female and no threat.

. I'm glad to see from this thread that it isn't completely reflective of Mumsnet.

It's really disingenuous to say that without hundreds of posts you would otherwise have thought that a single post was "completely reflective of Mumsnet". It's this kind of dishonesty that we see over and over from people pretending that those who see gender as harmful are 'anti trans'.

Oooh so if women can’t speak on this, then males with a trans identity cannot claim to be women

What are your suggestions for reconciling womens rights to single sex spaces such as female only sport and health care delivered by females only with trans rights OP? Because that's the crux of the issue.

The bathroom comments too! If anyone was to assault someone, they'll do it. They don't need a bathroom to.

So all the TW complaining they are at risk in male "bathrooms" can be dismissed, can they? That's good to know as it was the main complaint after the SC ruling. (Also it makes no sense, as both toilets are single-sex, mixed-gender if you believe in gender self-id).

Trans women are women makes as much sense as the earth is flat brigade. You're deluded. But carry on living in your self made narrative as a "trans ally:

As an ex prison visitor I can tell you TW are housed in single cells (England )

Question for any of the trans allies....what is a woman?

JKR has always been clear that she speaks as a WOMAN. One who has suffered domestic abuse, so unfortunately understands all too well that women sometimes need space away from men.

The fact that it hasn't even occurred to you that women should get to advocate for themselves, speaks volumes about your misogyny.

And presumably still sharing communal areas and things like showering facilities.

In Limerick prison, female prisoners reported hearing 'Barbie Khardashian' roar sexual abuse at them from his cell. So even that doesn't spare the women prisoners.

Then there are the female guards and other staff who have to look after them. Khadashian threatened to rape and kill his prison officer (as well as another inmate).

Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different?
I'm Gen X, I've lived through mods and rockers, hippies, punks, goth and rave.
I'm not scared of people being different.
I'm scared of kids being forced to conform.
Forced to conform with medication and surgeries.
I'm concerned that children are being purposefully targetted and told a pack of lies all for the benefit of blokes with a sexual fetish.
I'm concerned young girls are put in a group with older pervy men.
Why aren't you?

Single sex cells have their own bathrooms.

That is inflammatory nonsense

Why don't the people shouting for limiting trans rights look at who exactly allowed self ID? I can tell you, it was Teresa May and Boris Johnson. If you want the next step in protecting women and girls then that has to be repealed. More engery into challenging legislation not fit for purpose.

The problem here is fear of sexual assault from penises. Rape cannot happen if you haven't got one. That is the law as is the definition of a woman-- adult female human. No dicks allowed.

The op asked why so much hatred of trans people and on come the bun fighters.
I'm neither a trans ally or a transphobe but you can't get away with discrimination on a wholesale level and not expect push back.
Few people posting here have first hand experience of being trans or living with someone who is. That's the bit that pisses me off.

That's not how it works. You can't reason gender dysphoria away any more than you can change sexual orientation. People who are affected will never accept their sex.

Assuming of course that they really have got gender dysphoria and haven't just been swept up in social contagion

No such thing as a "cis" woman...the word you're looking for is "woman", no more, no less. if t"w" are "women" then they wouldn't need to add the word "trans" would they?