AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Did that make sense in your head?

What are 'trans sceptics'?

Is it transphobic to believe that women are female?

Because if it is, then every male woman taking on female characteristics in order to be womanly is a transphobe.

Do women to have rights on your country?

You’re a transphobic bigot if you think transwomen shouldn’t compete in female sport. You’re a bigot and support apartheid if you think there should be seperate toilets and changing rooms that transwomen who don’t want to use male facilties.

but other than that why not let people get on and live their lives as they wish if they’re not hurting anyone

but what they want is to use female toilets and changing rooms and take part in female sport.

I agree with you….live and let live up to the point that what you want conflicts with my rights and the rights of other females.

'The vast majority of men don’t commit sexual assault, the vast majority of the trans community don’t either.'

The vast majority of transmen don't commit sexual assault. Transwomen commit sexual assault with the same (or slightly higher) regularity as men

Honestly, I’ve been on Mumsnet for years and I may have missed the odd thread where you say you’ve seen hateful comments, but I’ve not seen anything that is denying trans people the “right to exist”.
Trans identifying people have the right to believe in “gender souls” and them “being trapped in the wrong body” the same as Christians have the right to believe in Jesus/god etc, what they don’t have is the right to insist I believe in it too, or demand that I use certain phrases/pronouns.
I don’t hate individuals who believe in trans ideology any more than I hate Christians because I’m an atheist. I just don’t want men in women’s spaces/sports teams or anyone policing my speech.
I’ve met many trans identifying people including one that I see at our local supermarket every week and I treat them all the same as I’d treat anyone else - politely. I don’t get into any discussions about their beliefs about their identity and they don’t hear me refer to them as their biological sex if I happen to mention them, so they don’t get offended.
I suspect most people have the same approach but part of trans ideology is having a massive persecution complex - it’s ridiculous that it’s considered a hate crime to refer to a man as a man/woman as a woman.

Can you link some examples?

No because they 'can't be arsed' but it's definitely happening.

Guessing it’s too much to ask for receipts at this stage?

Any vitriolic examples yet? I’ve been out all afternoon. Surely someone has given at least one?

Pretty much what I think - thanks @BMW6 .

And I think @Wordsmithery that you also should be aware that these men who wake up one morning thinking they're women often have wives & children, and parents and siblings. These families are often put through the mill.

Have a read of the "Transwidows" threads to read of how these narcissistic men treat those around them.

Or have a look at the various Transwidows websites, and the websites hosting stories of the experiences of the children of these men.

These autogynephilic men are not kind, although they require the women around them to #bekind handmaidens.

Yeah 15 pages in and we are full of hate and vitriol apparently yet no examples of either other than saying men aren't women.

Can you point out JKR’s transphobia in this essay she wrote (linked here) because I’ve seen people say it’s the most transphobic thing they’ve ever read, and I still don’t understand what she’s said that’s so bad.

For this she’s received death threats, had people camp out at her home, had TRAs share graphic porn on Twitter threads aimed at children, has been the victim of a long standing attempt to cancel here, including by three really shit actors who should credit her and her alone for their fame and wealth, she gets picked on by so many people about her pro woman stance. She’s got blunter as time’s gone on, but fucking hell she’s put up with more shit than most people deal with.

Over time she’s shown herself to be an absolute steadfast champion for women. She’s funded a female only rape shelter in Edinburgh when every other shelter was covertly mixed sex, and received hell for doing so.
She’s helped women fund court cases when they’ve lost jobs or been arrested for daring to not want men in single sex spaces, or for knowing that men cannot change sex - all things that the SC ruling has confirmed.

People going for JKR usually haven’t read anything she’s said, and haven’t seen the backlash she got, or are misogynists and think it’s ok for a huge group of men to pressure a woman to shut up and be kind.

Honestly this whole movement has highlighted how much so many people hate women, and JkR has beared the brunt of much of this.

'Trans identifying people have the right to believe in “gender souls” and them “being trapped in the wrong body” the same as Christians have the right to believe in Jesus/god etc, what they don’t have is the right to insist I believe in it too, or demand that I use certain phrases/pronouns. I don’t hate individuals who believe in trans ideology any more than I hate Christians because I’m an atheist. I just don’t want men in women’s spaces/sports teams or anyone policing my speech.'

Such a good and surely easy to understand analogy. Beliefs are fine and up to the individual but you can't impose such beliefs on others and tell them they must agree.

You were SHOCKED that most of us think that women are female and men are male? How shocked can one be by a factual view held by pretty much everyone for the whole of human history (until the last 5 minutes, relatively speaking)?

Both the people who called her trans phobic to me IRL hadn’t read that.

I was taught to read primary texts. Back when education taught critical thinking.

So if the “arsehole behaviour of others” is not on you, surely that also apples to everyone? I’m sure your trans friends are lovely people, who deserve nothing but respect and kindness, but so are the majority of women who object to all their spaces becoming mixed sex. I have not seen any “transphobia” on here, but I have seen women shouted at, screamed at, assaulted and threatened for saying they wish to retain single sex spaces. Women are told to be kind and budge up and share their spaces with males, and smile whilst doing it. Where is the kindness and respect towards women?

Yeah, but that's the point.

If Jill or Will finds their happiness in using a nickname, gendering clothes and than intentionally crossdressing to perform their inner feelings, decide to try different hobbies than are stereotypically approved for their (sex-based) gender, good for them. It's good to get out of the gender boxes and explore more of being human. It can matter to them, but it doesn't really matter to anyone else, they don't need our approval, they can just enjoy the freedom, win win

The moment they want to use it to get some rights people of their sex don't have (using opposite sex's spaces) or consider their very limited experience an expertise in living in their dreamed of gender (male trying to be the women's representative somewhere), it stops being only about them exploring their whole humanity. It becomes about them asking everyone around to become the extras in their fantasy, to take a step back in something which matters to the others.

'Noncis'?!

I think it means ‘a willing participant in their own oppression’. Which is why technically if you reject gender you are agender, and therefore technically (according to the various umbrellas) trans.

Which means all the GC women are technically trans. Which does rather show up the reductio ad absurdum of it all.

Other way around maybe.

Is it like nonces?

I'll assume the pp is unaware of the meaning of this word and has just made an unfortunate neologism.

the sad thing is that if TRAs had gone down a different route Trans, feminists, all teachers and many others would have supported them.

But instead of being men and women that rejected gender stereotypes they decided that TWAW and that they should be allowed to take the rights of women.

As for excessively hateful, go look in a mirror and see what TRAs have done and are still doing, they are the ones that are bringing your trans community in to disrepute.

But this thread like so many others was started to cause disharmony whilst pretending to want peace.

It also allows you to compete the the oppression Olympics so well done.

If you claim Mumsnet is such a 'hotbed of transphobia' (even the cliches are predicable and repetitive), then let me ask you this.

Why does the general tone of this site, if so drenched in transphobia, profess support for trans men?

Amid the relentless, aggressive push for trans rights, why are trans men virtually ignored?

Why is it only women the TRA routinely seek out to scold for daring to congretate and express opinions they don't happen to like?

Why don't you try that number on men, given it's men who are claimed to be the problem in not allowing trans women to 'pee in peace?'

Confess it. This whole perfect shitstorm is nothing whatsoever to do with trans people. It's about persecuting women, oppressing women, and putting us back into what you see as your box. But, fortunately, there's been far too much sunlight on too many turning tides over the past 2-3 years for people to unsee it now. This nasty, misogynistic campaign is rapidly running its course and losing hearts and minds. And this isn't because 'the most persecuted minority' are hated merely for existing - it's down purely to the lobby's aggressive misogyny, its bullying and its remonstrations to women to 'reframe your trauma' and 'enjoy your erasure'. Not a nice feeling, is it?

You are not now reaping the results of feminist prejudice and mean, far-right, biogted, neo-Nazi women - plus all the rest of the repulsive slurs you've levelled at anyone who dares recognise that an ideology with no room for debate or questioning is a dangerous thing.

Look no further for the cause of your loss of public support than your own behaviour. You did this to yourselves.

#NoDebate, indeed.