AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

The Us Democratic party's baffling policy decisions and ultimate self destruction.

That's clearly not what I said. I said that some posters were cheering on an anti abortion sex offender being elected. I presume most people on mumsnet are in the UK so can't even vote in the US elections, you can choose who you cheer for though and they chose an anti abortion sex offender. That, to me, says a hell of lot about them.

Good post, WilfredsPies. This argument that black women can't be gender critical is incredibly racist, especially considering many black women are gender critical.

I absolutely fucking hate Trump. And yet he was the better option.

How bad must it have been to be the better option?

I guess we will find out when Farage gets in on the same ticket.

Not the people cheering on anti abortion politicians thats for sure. I'm in a country where abortion was illegal til recently. Also here men can sign a piece of paper and say that they are women. I can tell you from personal experience which one effects women the most, which one is most important for the safety of women.

As someone who both had to travel for an abortion and whose life was saved by an abortion I will never see anyone that supports anti abortion politicians as anything else but scum.

But they weren’t cheering him personally, let alone his sex offences and anti abortion stance, they were cheering because they personally believed the alternative candidate and administration was worse. Rightly or wrongly, it’s a political opinion.

See, it is possible to disagree with people without calling them 'scum'.

Amd my point is if the Dems had been in anyway reasonable or sensible about this, they wouldn't have given Trump such a spectacular own goal.

Approval of a policy doesn't mean approval of him.

But we're the hate filled ones, remember?

Like I said I live in a country where abortion was illegal, I live in a country where a man can say he is a woman. I know what's worse. Read the stories of the women in Ireland that were published prior to the 8th being appealed. There is no question which is worse.

Who exactly is 'cheering on' anti abortion policies?

Politicians. Not policies. Politicians. That's the second time you are attributing things to me that I didn't say.

It's a shame that OP is just another plopper with no actual interest in debate 😕

You're serious? Trump and Farage the better option? Have you actually seen what is going on in the US and how minorities are treated? How democracy and the rule of law are trampled? The creation of a police state? All of that and Trump was the better option?
The mind truly boggles.

I spoiled my vote because all available parties appear to be either corrupt and incapable of running a country, or they’ve lost the original reason for starting up the party in the first place and have turned themselves into a single issue party and sack anyone who is GC.

As single issues go though, as I am a woman I feel quite comfortable picking this as an important single issue - it affects every woman, particularly those who are vulnerable. We fought long and hard for our rights, things we take for granted every day - if you use public loos, have your own house, have your own bank account, work even once married, vote, are allowed to not be raped within marriage, work at certain jobs, have abortions, have single sex spaces. All of these things have made the lives of women better. If women cannot be defined without including men then all our rights start to dissolve, particularly those related to our sex. It feels like women are often on shaky ground in terms of our single sex rights. Sodding men find any way they can to take them from us.

The Democrats had election after election for what, 40 years, to make abortion laws that weren't 'no' or 'up till birth'.

They only have themselves to blame for the shit show.

Exactly.

That's what they're tying it to, now. After #twaw #nodebate and #bekind didn't work, they're now doing #wehavealwaysbeenhere and trying to tie sex realists to anti-abortionists.

What these TRAs don't realise is that many sex realist women have had abortions. And they seem weirdly jealous of that.

But is it so hard for you to uunderstand that people can be right about some things and not others?

I don't think anyone on MN was 'cheering on' Trump on abortion or on plenty of other issues.

However if they said he was right about the gender issue, then do you disagree?

Hitler is one of the most horrific people to have lived, but I agree with his take on animal rights. Does that make an evil Nazi?

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few.
Women saying this on MN are apparently hateful. Unless women had talked about this on MN we'd be having to put up and shut up with the fear of prosecution or violence for doing so. Because women are hated for being women. Not because we hate trans people.

Women's rights do not equal 'anti-trans'. You are making this equivalence whilst simultaneously saying the exact same thing we've all done.

Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone.

They haven't listened to women to date unless we've forced the issue. If we hadn't have been allowed to talk on MN, the government wouldn't have listened. Women have worked hard to get them to listen. And then you turn around and say "oh but you are doing it all wrong and are being a bit mean".

And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.

However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa.

Quotes please. Being direct and assertive is not vitriolic. It's reaffirming your boundaries.

Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different?

There's a whole section of MN dedicated to why it matters and why it's not about being scared. Perhaps you'd like to read it.

Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames?

Perhaps they are shit down in flames because they make posts like this one which demonstrate just how ignorant they are about what is actually being said on MN because they don't actually read MN. Or they don't engage with the subject beyond 'stop being mean'.

How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)?

Yes it does. Perhaps you'd like to educate yourself about it. Hop off over to the feminist section. There's lots of threads on the subject.

What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?

Perhaps you'd actually like to read MN instead of lecturing us for tone. This comment is the biggest tell. You don't read MN. You've just come here to scold.

Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.

This is a forum that centres women. Not trans people. You make the assumption that we don't care about trans identifying people. Many of us do but realise that the bullshit being peddled by trans activism is actually harming those very people and we think it's unacceptable and we want to stop it.

No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Disagreeing is not hate.

Given you've not actually read MN before I'm not quite sure how you can go around accusing everyone of hate.

Care to post an example?

You aren't posting in good faith. You havent read MN.

I know. But not by me. Are you mixing me up with someone else?

Here's how it unfolded...

There's been trans people my whole life. There used to be a man who wandered around in a skirt in my village. Absolutely nobody cared.

Then suddenly this new ideology took over, and people started saying things that were obvious nonsense, like "gender is a contruct", and that we all had to have pronouns and so on and I think most people thought it was complete crap but provided people live and let live... fine.

Then in increments it starts going mad. We got to a point 75% of the kids in my sons class were non binary or trans and they changed their names to parsley or dill. I started to be worried that the kids might not be all right, but still I thought it was a fad that would blow over.

I rolled my eyes a lot when ridiculous stuff started happening like men making videos on social media claiming they had their period. Or the words describing women were replaced with others, but I wasn't quite yet done being generous.

Then suddenly I wake up and men are competing against women in professional sports and stealing all their medals, men are winning women's awards and advertising bras or women's sportswear. And our spaces are now open to any man who says he's a woman.

And enough was enough. And when we said enough was enough, this aggressive, bullying movement turned on us. Got women fired, cancelled and hounded for simply telling a man the truth that he is a MAN.

I can't speak for all women, but I had to be pushed quite far until I'd had enough, but I've definitely had enough. I don't care if trans people exist. They can dress how they like, have sex with any consensual partner they wish, and spout as much new age crap as they want to. They can identify as a mid century armchair for all I care.

But leave women's rights alone. That's it.

Yes. But to be fair gender is a social construct and very harmful.
Sex on the other hand, very real and not possible to change it.

I don't even think he was the better option, but was I glad he signed those consecutive orders banning boys and men from womens sports? Yes.
Was I dismayed at the reach his ad had with 'Harris is for they/them, Trump is for you'? Yes, but omg what a good ad. It brought home the message that the Democrats were just focusing on their insane pet projects that nobody wanted and that they couldn't be trusted.

Am I scared politics in European countries are heading the same way? Yes, they are. So where the f are the left wing parties that will just have normal policies and won't go on record that they can blatantly disregard the law like here in the UK with the SC judgement.

Don't like women having sex based rights? Ok, change the law and remove sex from the EA. But own it so we can all openly lobby against it.

"No hatred please": but what you said is pretty vitriolic against the majority of people who bith believe in biological sex,see gender as stereotypes, and resent and refuse to be forced to lie? The truth isn't hate.

Personally, I don't believe gender exists. There's sex and there's personality. That's it.

I know lots of people disagree though and that's fine. I treat it like religion. Some people believe in souls and some don't. If it's treated as a belief system like any other then it's not a problem.

The problems start when people claim that gender is more important than sex and means a man should be able to compete in women's sports and stuff.