AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Exactly. Bring it on.

If you believe that the aim of trans people trying to exist is to “remove safeguards and boundaries” you have been misinformed. I think you’ll find that their aim is simply to be accepted and live their lives in peace. But thanks for illustrating my point so nicely.

They can live in peace.
What they can't do is access spaces & provisions that exist to provide safety equality recognition support & opportunity for people of the opposite sex.

which is fine, for those ones, as long as they stay out of women's spaces.

But you know that that would never be affirming enough right?

No one’s stopping them being accepted and living their lives in peace. They can happily call themselves by another name and wear whatever they like. What they can’t do is expect others to go along with it if they don’t want to. And that includes demanding access to spaces designated for the opposite sex. So Jill can totally become Aiden if she wishes, but she can’t demand entry to men’s single sex spaces or groups designated for the male sex, such as support groups.

Why does that aim then involve demanding access to women's single sex spaces, which women need for their own safety and dignity?

Because total capitulation by women is the only acceptable outcome for them.

'Third spaces' have been suggested countless times on here and decried as transphobic and outing.

And it's not just about the actual space. Women like Sandie Peggie have faced employment tribunals for not using a female changing room because a man was using it. The women in the space are the resource, even if its unwilling.

But 'be kind', right? Be forced to undress in front of a undressed man or face the consequences.

The way to help thrse girls is called watchful waiting.
I know this because way back when in the stoneage before puberty blockers, when gender dysphoria was recognised as a form of body dismorphia and as a symptom of underlying mental health issues such as trauma, abuse and/or being autistic or gay we (myself included) received intensive talking therapy where we dealt with our complex issue and trauma. We learned that there was nothing wrong with our bodies just our disordered thinking and for most of us we came to accept our changing bodies and came to love ourselves for who and what we are.
The very few normally male people who can't resolve their issues with their body (like my friend from group therapy) understand and accept that they can't change sex, that any external changes that they make to their body in anyway changes their sex and don't insist on wrong sexed pronouns nor do they use the opposite sex facilities or services.
My friend has been openly trans for over 30 years and has never had an issue using the men's facilities whether he's wearing a dress or jeans, he's always used male pronouns as he doesn't expect or want anyone to feed into his body dismorphia.
We need a complete factory reset on "gender care" and go back to watchful waiting and nobody agreeing with delusional thinking nor should we be teaching children that if they don't fit a regressive narrow stereotype then they need to change their bodies because their really trans. We need to fix the disordered thinking not harm health bodies whilst reinforcing the disordered thinking

That’s great, they can be accepted in the spaces intended for their sex then can’t they? If that’s not sufficient I think you’ve proved her point about removing boundaries nicely.

I'd like people with dysphoria to have healthcare that helps them move towards reality. I can want this and for FGM to stop at the same time.

Hyperbolic nonsense. Engage with the conversation or don’t but dont whine about those who are having the conversations. #nodebate is over.

Funnily enough I've just been looking at that thread.

I met with the most strident and extraordinary assertions that it is 100% possible to identify a male from a female on the basis of physical characteristics

Your opening gambit in that argument was that we can't tell what sex someone is unless we know them and have seen them naked and probably not even then unless we do a genetic test.

Posters pointed out how ridiculous that was, there was some discussion about how some people, mostly women, are better at correctly identifying sex than others, there was discussion of face blindness and whether this affected the ability.

You then came round to agreeing with the majority of posters who said that 99.99% of the time we can tell.

But a couple of pages later you claimed that people had repeatedly said we can always tell, which seemed a bit goady and not true.

One suggestion made and supported was that females are defined by an ability to give birth!

Within the context of a discussion about male and female physical sex differences, and especially the Q angle of the pelvis and femur, a poster said that women have the kinds of bodies that can grow and birth humans. Which is true.

You misinterpreted this and said that the poster was claiming the definition of female is having an ability to give birth.

Four posters corrected your misinterpretation and clarified for you that a female body is one which is formed around the function of producing large gametes, carrying a pregnancy etc. whether or not an individual woman can or does do those things.

Yet here you are, repeating the claim again. Disingenuous much?

'strident'

And for anyone who wants to think about what being a "good allies" means for patient.

He worked in A&E as well as in other wards and stated that he expected staff to bring him to a girl or woman who said that they wanted to see a woman doctor.

He is UK trained and will have been trained to understand the importance of informed consent.

He expected that other staff who were also had a professional obligation to respect informed consent to become active participants in an assault of a girl or woman in their care.

First do no harm is about putting the patient first.

what is disproportionate is the impact that TRAs have had in changing policies and practices in public bodies and businesses. What other protected characteristics get as much focus?

Being concerned about the rights and opportunities of 51% of the population isnt some niche issue.

In over 70 years no doctor has told me their sex and I've never asked. Do some doctors really announce their sex to patients?

That actually completely boggled my mind when I heard that during the tribunal. That he was willing to say in court on record that he would treat someone asking for a female health care professional. Completely trampling all over the patients rights and ignoring informed consent.

i don't want to be treated by someone with so little regards to their patients and informed consent,

then the treatment of the nurses in Darlington. Being told you can't exclude someone from your own surgery as it would hurt their feelings....., I've no words.

Why do you feel sorry for trans people?

Do you think trans people wanting to live in a way that feels right for them should be at the top of the pyramid when it comes to conflict of rights? Women have certain sex based rights including in some circumstances the right to access to single sex spaces. A transwoman wanting access to that space is not their right. Do you believe in single sex spaces? Genuinely interested to know.

Where's op?

It's more if the patient says they want to be treated by one sex over the other.

that request might not be able to be met, but the patient should be told that, and offered a chaperone or the patient can opt not to be treated.

informed consent matters

Nobody is outlawed from all facilities. Fear of 'not passing' does not trump fear of actual physical harm. Yes, if very male-presenting transmen uses the appropriate toilets (i.e. the ladies'), there is a possibility they will be challenged. Embarrassing for them, no doubt. But not actually dangerous.

The statistically much, much larger danger of assault and abuse posed by men, I notice you mention in your post. So... your reason why we should allow male-bodied people in the ladies' is...?

Sorry should have quoted the post I'd just read, it said, "Does anyone think it isn’t a problem when a male NHS doctor states he is biologically female and it’s “hate” to say otherwise?" So it didn't say anything about a patient saying they wanted to be treated by one sex.

What’s your point?

The doctor in question was stating this in a courtroom.

Yes, I absolutely do believe in single sex spaces but my personal view is that unisex facilities should always be provided alongside them.