AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Because living in a kinder world helps all of us.

Very true. But there's an important distinction here. I have a problem with those people because of their behaviour. There is the point that most of those who indulge in those forms of abuse, particularly sexual abuse, are men - and the statistics bear this out. And women do know that not all men are like that - we just become justifiably angry when the point is trotted out ad nauseam on threads dealing with rape or sexual abuse - about the last place where people need to hear that.

Same goes for trans people. There is a vast difference between a young, vulnerable, autistic person (there's a high correlation between autism and transition) who has been sold the lie that transition will 'magic' away all their feelings of isolation and exclusion - and a middle-aged AGP who transitions later in life and becomes abusive with his family: a scenario seen all too often on the trans widows threads. Different again, are the old-school transsexuals, long-established in their chosen gender presentation, who have simply been living their lives quietly and without incident until a bunch of aggressive MRAs took up the mantle on their behalf. Forced teaming is an important factor here - lumping all these people together under the same umbrella does a grave disservice to those who are indeed vulnerable, or who don't hate women and want to see them 'enjoy your erasure', and I quote.

Likewise, sometimes it's impossible to separate out the TRAs from the MRAs, to the extent that the objective becomes not protections for trans people, but the persecution of upstart women who have had the temerity to say 'no'.

In all these scenarios the problem is not the fact that someone is trans. It's the behaviour - not homogenous - of some of those claiming to be speaking on their behalf.

Kindness to women is respecting their feelings, comfort, privacy, dignity and boundaries. But you do you.

How is it kind to women to take away their rights to single sex spaces?

Sounds like you're only interested in being kind to men.

So how do we tell the difference between a man with a trans identity and a man pretending to have a trans identity? Is there a secret sign?

Kindness is a commodity expected of women. It is rarely if ever assumed that women will be kind to ourselves, much less expect that courtesy to be reciprocated.

I'd like to see some of that much-lauded kindness extended to women. Unfortunately, it seems I can keep wanting.

Where's the evidence that trans identified men are in danger when using mens facilities?

There are a number of trans identified men who have been using mens toilets for years without any problems.

You can't seriously believe this is only about marches.

Do those transwomen use women's single sex spaces? Do they insist on strangers using their special language?

What about the transwoman nurse who says "you asked for a woman and you got one so STFU bitch"

What about the woman who was raped and the hospital told police it was impossible because there were no men on the ward. (There was a transwoman there who raped her)

What about the headteacher letting the boys into the girls changing rooms because they feel a bit trans.

What about the transwomen taking photos under toilet doors, exposing themselves in changing rooms and having a woman fired for choosing to leave the changing room without taking her clothes off in front of him first.

How does letting men into female spaces benefit women? What do women get out of giving away our rights to same sex spaces? Why should the wants and feelings of these men be given priority?

I sincerely hope that the SC ruling will make that outcome a foregone conclusion. But having come this far through the looking glass anything is possible.

But why is male on male violence women’s problem to solve? Surely if males with a trans identity feel unsafe in men’s facilities … that’s on men. Surely men must be the ones told to be kind and budge up and not be so transphobic. Why don’t you as a trans ally work on that instead of berating women for not giving up our rights?

This issue should perhaps be taken up with those men who are alleged to be doing the assaulting or abusing. I say 'alleged', because I'm unsure whether statistical evidence bears out the fact that trans women are indeed at risk when using the facilities designated for their sex.

The onus is not on women to become human shields. Once a facility has been opened up to some men - humans can not change our immutable sex - then it becomes a mixed sex facility, thus forcing some women on religious grounds, of those of past sexual trauma, or those who for whatever reason don't want a mixed sex facility and and reason is valid - to self-exclude. Self-exclude, from facilities which were designated for them in the first place.

Why do men constantly get off the hook from their own responsibilities here? Why haven't TRAs/MRAs gone after them for supposedly creating such an unsafe environment for the more effeminate members of their sex?

Why, why, WHY are women always deemed support vessels, commodities for the needs of others, whilst their own needs can take a running jump and it's constantly reinforced that society cares less about us and doesn't even view as fully human?

The entire ideology is sexist. It is sexist to believe that one can be a woman by wearing certain clothes or behaving in a particular way. So in that sense, yes I do wish trans people didn’t exist- I wish they didn’t HAVE to exist because I wish we had a society which accepted both masculine and feminine behaviours in both men and women. A society where gender meant nothing at all (because I see it as a harmful concept).

But none of this means I would be unkind or abusive to trans people. I would simply avoid having them in my social circle because clearly they see the world completely differently to me. I am insulted by the deceit that some men are women and I don’t want to be friends with those men because I know that they see my existence as two-dimensional.

yes where is the evidence for this? On the one hand you are saying trans identifying men arent dangerous to women, any of them, even though they are men, but non trans identifying men, all of them, would instantly beat up a man identifying as a women as soon as he steps in the loos appropriate for his sex.

This is clearly not true.

My male partner, brother, friends, sons might roll their eyes or think how ridiculous they look, but they wouldn't say or do anything. Same as they wouldn't rape a woman.

Doenst change the fact that not all men are rapists, but all rapists are men. How are women supposed to tell the difference? And why is how men do or don't act towards each other our problem anyway??

But they've never been challenged on anything until recently. They behave like bullies and the awful way they're acting will be their downfall. Because they're now telling everyone who they really are. The Emporers Clothes comes to mind.

Like fuck it does. ‘Kindness’ is routinely weaponized against women to our detriment. ‘Be kind’ aka passively allow ourselves to be steamrolled. No thanks.

Male violence against trans women is not women’s problem to solve at the expense of our own spaces.

If transwomen feel they can’t go into male facilities due to risk (and they can’t see the irony here), why aren’t trans allies campaigning for males to be more accepting of gender non conforming men in their spaces? Campaign for them to be open and accepting so that trans women feel safe.

Where is all that? The males in my life I’ve asked said they wouldn’t care if a trans woman came into the toilets/changing room 🤷‍♀️.

Kind only seems to go one way though. I'd love to live in a kind world where my rights as a woman were respected by all. Sadly though there are people who wish to dismantle my rights as a woman, while yelling "be kind"

be kind is nothing more than an instruction to let someone else trample over your rights while saying nothing.

It’s often deliberate gaslighting.

Indeed. While there remains the loud contingent online, support for trans rights has declined in recent years. I suspect the ‘no debate, fuck off, get raped by girlcock and die terf’ attitude has heavily contributed to this.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

It's not a woman's job to make a man feel safe. There is also the hypocrisy of t"w" claiming to feel unsafe in the men's facilities as they "don't know which men will harm them", yet dismissing women when those women express the same fears about having t"w" in their spaces. Either t"w" believe that all biological males are harmful ( so that would include them), or they don't, in which case they can use the toilets designed for their bio sex....they can't have it both ways as much as they would love to.

Indeed

@Freudianflip
Why aren’t they campaigining for their own safe spaces?
If the trans activists had campaigned for their own spaces, they would have plenty of facilities now.
Why do transwomen think they can only be safe in women’s spaces? What risks woluld they face in transwomen only spaces?

Do 'trans' people really behave as if they are the opposite sex? If that was the case the number of 'trans' people in jails for sexual assault would mirror the opposite sex stats not just be (in males) 3 times that of men who dont say they are 'trans'.

I could reel off a bazillion behaviours of males who say they are 'trans' but to be honest, you all know. It's just for some reason some people who can never explain themselves else they be 'piled on' want to see this as a good thing.

If you want to challenge our 'circular arguments' which is that nobody can change sex and that giving off the book cancer drugs that cause sterility and lifelong medical issues to teenagers is bad, then please do go ahead and explain how people change sex and why these drugs are beneficial.

Please, educate me, I beg you.

I don't think I've ever seen a post here where someone is saying trans people don't have the right to exist - can you link to some?

From my own experience here, it seems that many agree with me that people are free to identify as anything they like but they can't make us believe things we know aren't true. For example, if Jim wants to call himself Jill and start wearing dresses, we don't care. We'll call him Jill if that's what he wants and he's free to believe he's whatever he wants to be but he can't make US believe he's a woman (or a baby, or a panda) because it isn't true. We all know that Jim's still a man until the day he dies (and also while dead in fact), regardless of what drugs he takes or which bits he's had removed. He can still exist as a trans person though because trans women are a subset of men and most of us have evolved past the point where we think men shouldn't wear make-up or dress as they please.

I'd happily chat to Jim/Jill (or anyone) about fashion and make-up because I like those things but plenty of women don't. He can't follow me into the women's toilets though because that's a female-only space and he's male. It's up to men to accept Jim/Jill into male spaces without bullying him. If they don't then Jim/Jill's problem is with men, not with women.