AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Exactly. Feeling at odds with your own body is very much deserving of sympathy (though it's something most people probably go through to some extent in puberty, and women often go through again in menopause).

Unfortunately it suits TRAs to falsely claim that GC people are denying their existence. Sometimes while holding placards or posting online describing how they'd like to actually violently end the existence of GC people.

True. Only one side wants to debate. The feminist side are champing at the bit and eager to debate. Trans activists won't debate and make up flimsy excuses about 'hate'. The reality is they know they cannot counter our arguments. When exposed to debate and sunlight, their positions are a house of cards built on quicksand. And they, and we, know it. If they were sure their arguments stood up, they would stay and debate.

Edited to add that even when these threads are created by plop and run trans activists, it gives us feminists the opportunity to provide counter arguments and most importantly receipts. And there are quiet people who haven't made up their minds that are reading, and quietly nodding along with what we're saying. It gives us the opportunity to plant seeds in those people's minds. The fact we debate, provide reasoned arguments, evidence and receipts is actually a positive opportunity for us to reach people. So for that reason, I actually thank the plop and run trans activists for giving us this platform to reach the silent readers.
So, thank you.

We all know it @SamiSnail

Yes, I have a problem with people harming others, all of the examples you give. I was talking in terms of the thread which is about trans people.

I meant I don't have care how anyone dresses, if they choose to present in more 'female' way. Be whatever it is that they think makes them not male, bake more, wear make up, be scared of spiders etc. I just don't care because none of that is what makes women women. If presenting that way makes them happy then good for them but it doesn't change what it is to be a woman. They still won't be a woman.

There's a woman who lives near me who dresses as a witch, hat and everything. She seems very happy living her life as a witch. Good for her, the world has too many unhappy people. Doesn't mean I'll be knocking on her door for a potion or turning up with flaming pitchforks if my roses die.

Yes, for people who don’t want our “hate” to have a platform outside FWR, they sure do start a lot of threads in AIBU about it! Which always go the same way, and the poll results are always telling.

The ironic thing is that despite most of us being on the thread from the start and seeing all the posts, none of us saw what that one said. If it were that bad, we would have seen it and called it out. Strange it was only one post, and none of us recall seeing anything in it. But 'well it was deleted so that's my proof'. Nah, I call bs. We were here. And we saw nothing of the sort. Strange how that poster is the only one out of all of us who saw it. Unless mumsnet is willing to come on and back up Cr01ssant55's assertion that it said all trans people are sexual abusers.

Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different?

The short answer, and I'm quite sure you know this, is that in the old days trans people were quietly tolerated because they behaved reasonably well.

Now a significant proportion have acted in a profoundly anti-social, anti-woman and taken over women's spaces and sports to the point that women are pushed out of them; calling for women to be killed and in some cases burned alive (i've seen it).

Men who hate women have jumped on the bandwagon to leer and lech at girls and women. Transwomen have a higher proportion of criminality and of that criminality, a higher proportion is sexual.

Girls and women have lost matches they've worked all their teen and adult lives to win, to males.

Girls and women have stopped going to swimming pools and women-only saunas and other areas that are women-only because of leering men pretending to be women, 90% of whom have penises.

You know all this by now, so I'm afraid your post is yet another disingenuous one.

18 pages and you have not come back..

The trans ideology, assumes that it is possible to identify from one set of regressive stereotypes into another. It logically follows that the stereotypes are fact, the consequences of those stereotypes are justified and that women do not have equal wealth, share of voice or power, because they identify into that role. That men deserve to leverage their greater strength, speed and voice against women, because if women wanted to, they could identify out of their oppression.

The ideology ignores the reasons why women benefit from segregated spaces, from definition, recognition and support.

When we can define women and support them, we can change the landscape of our society, work out why women are under represented on the boards of big companies, on the sports fields, on television, on the rich lists.

When we look around the world, do we think that women who are forced into under age marriages, who experience sexual violence when they use public bathrooms, who have no access to their own money and do not have the right to own property are all willingly identifying into these situations?

If we can not do this, do not focus on this, are we saying that women do not merit equal respect.

No girls or females are attacked for being 'ugly'. It's about male skeletal structure.

Not 'feminine looks'. You tell on yourself with that post that you don't have the slightest understanding what this is about.

Thanks for the word salad 😂

@Wordsmithery
What do you define as trans hate?
I don’t hate trans people and will always treat them with respect, address them by the name/prounoun they choose. If Will wants to identify as Jill, I will accept that she is a TRANSwoman.
However, the problem is that most transwomen do not want to be seen as transwomen. They want to be recognised as the same as biological women and this is the issue I am not ok with. Transwomen are not the same as women. They cannot know how it feels to be a woman because they were not born as one.
Transpeople should have their own spaces, but should not demand access to the spaces of the opposite sex.

1. Women’s/girls’ sports are for biological females only.
2. Women’s toilets/ changing rooms are for biological females only.
3. Women’s hospital wards/prisons and other institutions are for biological females only.
4. Women’s refuges/rape centres are for biological females only.
5. If a woman requests a woman doctor/police officer or other official, her choice should be respected and she should not be forced to see a transwoman instead.
6. Lesbians shouldn’t be forced to accept transwomen into their groups.
7. All the other groups, social organisations, which are advertised as girls’/women’s , should be for biological females only.

None of the above is transphobic. Protecting women’s rights is not transphobic.

And females and the feminist community are not going anywhere. We've been here since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. And we are winning this war.

Women are not obliged to Be Kind to a group of male-bodied individuals that - in the majority - are particularly keen to trample on women’s rights, erode women’s language, silence women, and jeopardise their safety.

The trans community are not allies of women but we’re still expected to provide support in return?! Fuck that.

I’m very glad that there are many brave and strong women who are willing to speak out against a group that continues to try to oppress women in multiple ways.

The fact that women are repeatedly scolded for our failure to be kind and inclusive, but the trans community get to treat us like absolute shit and no one cares, demonstrates the rampant misogyny and sexism in our society at every level.

Every word of this is perfect but the last sentence is especially so. I'm pinching that one for future use!!

This is almost funny.

Im more alarmed at the eroding of women’s rights and women only places. I’m disgusted at trans women invading sports events and ‘winning’ them, clearly maximising on their biological advantage.
I’m not anti-trans. Each to their own. But I do object to women’s needs being put second due to a relatively small number of trans people and I also get a bit fed up with the constant banging on about trans’ rights.

Alongside an absolute determination to make it a bigger topic and consumer more public funds than I see as necessary.

I just want to pick up on this.

NHS Fife have finally revealed that they have spent over £220,000 (so far) defending a man who had a tantrum because a woman wouldn't undress in front of him.

The Scottish Government spent God knows how much money on their determination to push through the GRR bill which had to be stopped by the use of Section 35 because it would have been contrary to the EQA2010.

The Scottish Government spent appalling amounts of money in defending the right for a public board consisting of all men to describe themselves as gender equal.

I certainly think public funds have been misappropriated, by those utterly determined to erode women's rights.

Thankfully, determined women were ready to push back on this erosion.

And in the case of the Scottish Government, they made themselves look like credulous fools, led by the nose by lobbying activists who have outright lied about the law for at least the last decade. The Supreme Court judgement shouldn't have been needed but the SG were determined to spend all that public money defending the indefensible.

This.

Let me make this absolutely clear. I have no problem with people living as whatever they wish, so long as they cause no harm to anybody else. However, I should also be able to identify as what I am, which is a woman. Not a person with a cervix, a person who menstruates, a birth giver, or whatever the hell else I've seen recently. I am a woman. I also have the right to safe spaces, which are male free - and yes, that includes free from women with penises (I can't believe that I have to write that phrase but oh well).

I don't actually believe that transpeople should have to use changing rooms/toilets of their birth sex. How intimidating and wrong that must feel for them. What I DO believe is that there should be a gender neutral provision for exactly this purpose. A single, standalone unit like the disabled one, that anyone is free to use. OR, my university has a corridor of single toilets which are all gender neutral, each containing a toilet, sink and hand dryer. That is the absolute best solution, for sure.

Everyone should have the right to feel safe, but unfortunately it seems that many things that are being done to accommodate transpeople are being done actually at the expense of women's feelings of personal safety, and that's the problem. Or, people born as men are being allowed to compete in female sports, despite the fact they still have an unfair hormonal advantage over the women in the sports.

I wouldn't say I'm a "trans ally", I am a person ally, a safety ally, and safe needs to mean safe for EVERYONE.

Estimation is that it’s going to cost them at least the same amount again - another 11 days in court coming up.

I disagree op. There’s not a lot of work to do either. The ruling has been quite clear. Women’s identity is not up for grabs. That doesn’t mean people can’t live how they like; it means they cannot live how they like if it is at the expense of other peoples’ rights. Like all other laws really.

It's the internet in general, my lovely. It lacks nuance. And anything extreme, either side of the spectrum, rises to prominence. It's what people click on.

Yesterday I typed up a long nuanced post for some trans thread and then ended up just deleting it because I know nothing good would come of it. Someone might agree with 70% of my argument but grab hold of that one phrase that rubs them up the wrong way and release the vitriol.

You have the loud very polarised opinions, and then you have a large, moderate silent majority that just doesn't get involved in all the noise. These are the same sorts of people that might not bother to vote, or stand up for someone/ something, and hope it all works out for the best/ sensibility prevails. Sometimes it does, sometimes it also clearly doesn't.

Just speak to your actual friends and IRL people and don't let the internet cloud your world view, it's either an echo chamber, rage baiting or very polarised, because algorhitms, clicks, selling ads... You get my point. There's a reason why there's usually a trans themed post featured in 'top 5 trending' on here, why you see that content and why it's given you the impression that it has. Controversy sells.

Something you'll see a lot as well is that very educated and informed people rarely engage in these debates as they know they won't really be listened to and can't win, so why bother. (And by the way, these people could choose to argue either side)

Adam Rutherford makes rather good points on that.

Also, people that run Mumsnet have purposefully made it a safe space for anti trans views, it's part of the platform's positioning, so you'll see it more here than perhaps other similar spaces.

On a thread where I tried to support the use of "they" as a pronoun to cool the current arguments down a bit and be less confrontational, I met with the most strident and extraordinary assertions that it is 100% possible to identify a male from a female on the basis of physical characteristics

Not only was that incredibly lacking in understanding of the diversity of physical appearance, the posters were completely unable to understand how demeaning that is to women who are not conventionally feminine in appearance.

One suggestion made and supported was that females are defined by an ability to give birth!

It was an extraordinary lack of empathy from women towards other women. I'm glad to see from this thread that it isn't completely reflective of Mumsnet.

I agree with you. I have tried, but get shot down. I have been told explicitly that people here think being trans is 'mostly made up', and i have been told that they would refuse to use pronouns of choice. It seems to me that the vast majority of commenters here do not know any trans or non binary people, and have no insight into their experience. I find it surprising considering the number of trans and nonbinary people I know, but I've been told I must be making that up too... it's a shame and speaks to a right wing, small-c-conservative mindset.

Whats missing from the main argument here is transmen - do mumsnetters really want transmen using the ladies loos? Who is this good for? Why would any woman prefer a male-presenting person to use the ladies'?

A bit more understanding and education about the actual experience of transpeople would go a long way here, and a better understanding of the distinction between sex (biological, but by no means simple) and gender (a sociopsychological construct).

"anti trans views" 🙄

Being pro-women does not equal being "anti trans". But that's how you like to frame it, isn't it? To make women who are concerned for their sex-baesd rights sound somehow hateful.

Some men believe that the purpose of women, is for the sexual gratification of women - those who watch porn, visit prostitutes, are violent to women, those who create images of violence to women, in books, TV series, films.

Young girls see how women are portrayed and feel that this is not what womanhood feels like to them, so they choose to opt out, to bind their breasts, to take cross sex hormones, to suppress their fertility and surgically alter their bodies.

Men see womanhood as a costume, a wig, lipstick, a skirt, surgically enhanced chest, a pair of heels. They adopt a personna, alter their gait, their voice, their mannerisms. This assumes that their view of women, is how women see themselves, it is a parody and to many of us, it is insulting.

My womanhood is not a choice, it is not something to be objectified, taken advantage of or mocked. I want every woman and girl to feel at ease in her body, to feel beautiful when she looks in the mirror, to feel equal, worthy and whole.

I also want every man to feel beautiful when he looks in the mirror, to feel equal, worthy and whole, to be able to explore the multiplicity of human experiences and emotions.

We should all be free to be our imperfect human selves, without requiring anyone else to perform to our demands, in order to validate our view of the world or of ourselves. We should look around and see the beauty in every human, in every expression of humanity, in neurodiversity, in sexual orientation. We should LOVE our bodies, nourish our bodies, support our bodies, not objectify them, abuse them, suppress our hormones or surgically alter them.