AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

I'm so happy to see this here!

You are right. The hatred is awful to witness. Abs yes it is almost impossible to speak up because you become a focus of the vitriol. It is quite depressing.

You can be as "male presenting" as you like. Doesn't make you a male.

Of course we want transmen to use the Ladies. Why wouldn't we? They're female.

'Also, people that run Mumsnet have purposefully made it a safe space for anti trans views'

Women on here aren't 'anti trans' they are anti men expecting to be able to compete against women in sport and invade women's spaces because they think they are a woman. They aren't.

If they want to dress as the opposite sex I don't think anyone on here would object but that is as far as if should go. You can't change sex.

BTW @Freudianflip , you've just spun yourself out of the purity spiral. Using the term "transmen" or "transwomen" is transphobic, did you not realise?

'Whats missing from the main argument here is transmen'
Tbf tansmen quietly go about their business I haven't seen anyone carrying placards wishing death on other women.
Of course they should use female facilities, they are women?

Ok are you going to provide examples of this hatred and vitriol?

Because no one else has ..,

do mumsnetters really want transmen using the ladies loos? Who is this good for? Why would any woman prefer a male-presenting person to use the ladies'?

Why would a trans man necessarily present as male? It's transphobic to think men are male.

Have we had any concrete examples of this vitriol yet or explanations of why men should be allowed into women’s spaces and sports because of a feeling?

Anyone?

You just reminded me of this story. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cx2e0l5gr27o

Exhibit A. A transwoman who wants to continue playing in the women's team. Is happy for their name and photo to be splashed across the news.

Exhibit B. The females players who disagree: "Most did not want to go on record with their opinions because of a fear of reprisals, but one footballer, who plays in the sixth tier of the women's game, was willing to speak anonymously.
Georgie (not her real name) believes the FA's new policy "protects the integrity of women's football that we have fought for so long to attain"."

Now tell me which side of the debate is scared to speak up?

I have never seen hate towards trans people. What I have seen and I have posted on, is everything you state in your first few sentences. This is not hate. Your way of thinking has contributed to the problems we now face. It is directly responsible for the silenecing, harassment, bullying that mostly women have received. Women have lost reputations and careers for speaking out. If you want to have a realistic discussion about whats happened, its not hate towards trans people, but silencing and punishment of women who dare to speak out.

One suggestion made and supported was that females are defined by an ability to give birth!
It was an extraordinary lack of empathy from women towards other women. I'm glad to see from this thread that it isn't completely reflective of Mumsnet.

I am an infertile woman and I’ve only ever had my infertility weaponised by TRA insisting that being a mother is how women gatekeep womanhood from them and therefore infertile women must not be women either.

actual women have never done that to me

I bitterly resent men using my infertility as a pathetic gotcha to try and elbow their way into women’s spaces

do mumsnetters really want transmen using the ladies loos?

Yep I have no problem with that.

Who is this good for?

Women

Why would any woman prefer a male-presenting person to use the ladies'?

Because statistically they are less likely to cause us harm.

I'm surprised you are unable to work that out for yourself.

I mostly feel heartbroken at the impacts of the ideology on children I know (now adults) - the pressure to identify as the opposite sex because they don't follow social norms regarding gender expression. I worry about the impact the treatments will have on their bodies and mental health. I worry they've been sold a lie as they can't actually change their bodies. Hearing an 18 is about to have her perfecting healthy breasts cut off is horrific

One has already made the choice to detransition but their body has changed irreversibly and they are now infertile.

These two statements absolutely typify the problems with the arguments made here so thank you!

1. 'Male' is a gender, and as such exists in the minds of each of us. You cannot see someone's gender. You also can't see someone's biological sex, and if you think you can then you are dismissing the huge number of cisgendered but androgynous presenting females out there.

2. Fine, but the end point of this argument is that people who look like men are asked to use the ladies' loos. Isn't this ridiculous given the 'safety' argument? And yes, transmen can and do look male, before you say they don't.

'Why would any woman prefer a male-presenting person to use the ladies'?'

Regardless of beards and tattoos women identifying as men are usually petite, obviously female and present no threat to other women.

I agree with you OP. That's why I have name changed to reply. Often I don't bother to comment because I think there's no point. In real life I have never met the aggressive transwomen that so many MNers meet in gyms, toilets and changing rooms on a daily basis.

It is not about who "looks" male. It is about who is male.

Wait - you think it's gc people who need telling that biological sex and gender (i.e. sex-based stereotypes) are not the same?!

Why would any woman prefer a male-presenting person to use the ladies'?

Well, first of all, very few transmen and even fewer transwomen really are presenting as the opposite sex, as the vast majority don't 'pass'. And secondly, it's penises women want to keep out of the ladies' not masculine clothes.

Trans people don't exist. It isn't a thing. It is a whole host of mental disorders branded under a single (very recent) label (transvestism, autogynaphelia, autism, gender dysphoria etc). There is no such thing as a man who is 'really' a woman or a woman who is 'really' a man. This nonsense has to stop.

maybe you should just go somewhere else that you like better?

You are correct . Most of us don’t support men in dresses . It’s not a question of not being hurt if you identify differently to your birth gender , you are unwantedly invading our spaces .

That's brutal.

Wow, it seems like there are a whole host of reasonable, “nuanced” posters who would like to make their extremely compelling arguments which would no doubt make us see the error of our horrible ways, but are “shot down” by the evil harpies who (gasp) won’t use female pronouns for men because they categorically reject that a group of men are women. The horror.

I don’t care of they’re the loveliest ppl imaginable they're still men and dont belong in women’s spaces

shall we let my DH in because he’s lovely?? How about other lovely men?