Muslim women who dress modestly...

[TreatTreat]

If you're at the beach and you want to paddle in the sea, are you able to roll up your trousers? Genuinely wondering as I saw a muslim family on the beach today having great fun. The kids were paddling in the sea. The women weren't but this question sprung in my head.

But it’s not called out all the time in many cases is it?

It seems to be an obsession with Islam

Have you seen the amount of threads that are on this place regarding only Muslim women’s dress?

@PreciousMomentsHun

encroachment on YOUR country?

now that is pretty racist
there’s plenty of Muslims born and bred in this country
Who consider it their own and peacefully coexist amongst others of different faiths and backgrounds

there are Muslim doctors, nurses, lawyers, engineers, bus drivers, teachers and the list goes on…..
You will find us peacefully thriving and contributing to OUR country everywhere…..

I wonder if you needed life saving surgery at Hospital, and a law abiding faith practising, bearded or hijabi doctor walked in?

But it’s not called out all the time in many cases is it?
It seems to be an obsession with Islam

Exactly.

“I wonder if you needed life saving surgery at Hospital, and a law abiding faith practising, bearded or hijabi doctor walked in?”

@Mihrimah - have you seen the recent videos of Muslim medics saying they won’t treat Jewish patients? Or screaming about Gaza in their NHS scrubs, but never admitting Hamas’s horrific role. A couple in Canada even implied they would seriously harm Jewish patients and had no qualms about posting this on social media for all to see! So I imagine some people ARE worried about being treated by some Muslim doctors, yes. I’m sure this is a minority of Muslim medics, but it only takes a few people to undermine trust between groups. This is why I worry about the increasing focus on Islam in what was becoming more of a secular society where religion was personal and mostly private.

It actually reminds me of a true story of a time when the local community in a town in Surrey wished to build a small Islamic centre for the minority of Muslims living there.

At first the white English neighbour opposed and didn’t want a mosque near her house.
because it was HER country

until she realised that it was the same man who happened to be the cardiologist who operated on her and saved her life.

The opposition went down pretty quick
The mosque was built
and they all become good friends

Except Miramah I did not say that. I said my country's way of life, something which exists whether or not you choose to recognise and respect it. It is the culmination of nearly two thousand years of Christianity, paganism which existed before that and has never ceased to, weathering multiple invasions, fighting foes at home and abroad, undergoing many societal upheavals, revolutions, and little by little shedding religious shackles and the influence of the Church, acquiring new freedoms.

Sorry how are British Muslims not a part of the collective way of life in the UK? This is actually barely a conversation about religion, gender roles and misogyny anymore, it's just flagrant racism at this point?

This is the most ridiculous response
bringing GAZA into it when it has nothing to with GAZA
this was about this country
if you want to talk about GAZA

start another thread and bring true statistics from reputable sources such as UNICEF, UN and other organisations who actually have FACTS on Gaza and the amount of children being killed, not some dodgy videos

@Tandora
exactly it
this has nothing to do with mysogny or human rights or anything else

its plain racism in plain sight
and you could explain to them till your blue in the face with point after point but you are dealing with uneducated racists here.

Maybe they will need that MUSLIM someday, somewhere in THEIR country

Check out, as am I

Ah but I did spend many years in my 20s living abroad, adopting the dress, diet and customs of the countries I lived in (whereupon I humbly discovered that British girls cannot hold their alcohol the way Japanese or Russian girls can).

Had I moved to Japan permanently (there was a marriage proposal and I did consider it), I would never have considered that bacon sandwiches, Morris dancing or Sunday school were now a part of the Japanese way of life because there was I and a little contigent of other British immigrants living there! The idea is ridiculous.

My husband, by the way, is an immigrant here and gladly participates all that the UK has to offer.

You may not participate in it, but you have to respect the existence of a pre-existing way of life, especially one that is thousands of years old.

The niqab, for example, is alien to our way of life, and concepts like arranged marriage used to exist only for the nobility (who could still have their own peccadilloes on the side, so it did not matter).

I think they are saying Islam is not part of British culture which is absolutely correct though. Anyone arguing for a multicultural society must surely agree with that point by definition.

Based upon scientific method, it's definitely illogical to conclude that something cannot exist or be untrue just because there hasn't been a methodology or technology invented that could identify and measure it.

After all, quarks existed before we'd theorised the presence of molecules and before we'd developed the technology capable of viewing anything at a cellualar level, never mind smaller. Radio waves existed before we'd theorised their existence or developed the technology capable of producing or receiving them. Binary stars and Earth class exo-planets existed before we'd observed, theorised and developed the means of detecting them.

I don't believe, but I know logically, scientifically, it's impossible to know. Because science states that everything changes. No scientific finding is immutable.

Your posts are naive I am afraid - children should never be told that they will always get help with problems at home in the UK because the care system is not remotely competent. Being taken into care whether to inadequate foster or care homes or being adopted is not a journey into the land of rainbows and unicorns unfortunately. It could and should be a lot better but the reality right now is diabolical. And utterly tragic for the nation's children as record numbers are getting taken into care.

You really should be on a soapbox about taking action to sort out our own problems before laying such judgement on others.

So you support secular enjoyment of Christian traditions but you want to get rid of all practiced religion?

Loving your willingness to gently educate @SonK !

And also to all others doing similar things here.

No. "Get rid of" suggests active steps to suppress religion, which has never to my knowledge done anything but drive its practitioners into more fervid fanaticism. However, things like faith schools should be abolished in my view; anything that promotes insularity and self-segregation from others and their points of view.

Let religion fade away as living conditions improve for everyone, so people need not waste their one short life consoling themselves with foolish dreams of the next one.

"Secular enjoyment of Christian traditions" is really an excellent description of how my own family has lived for generations.👍

You are entitled to your own view but a heads up that your dismissal of practised religion is going to cause deep offence and irritation to many people. Even those who are not actively practicing a religion, anyone who believes in God is going to be offended. Including those who are well informed, highly educated - many who have faith and spirituality are. Just a heads up for you that you are treading on a lot of toes!!

I am not sure you are right in relation to history either. We (UK) have been shaped by Roman and Greek culture, by Muslim advances during our dark ages in science, maths, etc, and from the industrial revolution onwards money and business have been arguably a greater shaper than Christianity, just to mention a few things. Also, we started to become multicultural when we shipped workers to the UK from the west indies after the 2nd ww - and our multicultural society has grown. Many aspects of our modern life are influenced by other cultures.

I think you might be confusing extreme Islamists with Islam as a whole, judging by your posts. It might be worth listening more to the Muslim posters here who are willing to explain to you their religion and culture.

I am not knocking a secular appreciation of any religion however, this can also peacefully co-exist with religious practice!

The problems in the UK now are not to do with being multicultural, they are to do with various attacks on civilisation such as reducing education, destroying social nets, uncontrolled illegal (note the word illegal) immigration, extreme nationalism and other extreme groups.

But I have repeatedly been called a racist and an Islamophobe and a moron and an ignoramus on this thread by these oh so reasonable posters, but my toes are resolutely unstepped on. It does not really change anything. (Perhaps I suspect you're a victim of brainwashing, perhaps you know for a dead certainty I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity- surely we're quits at that point.)

Yes, there is an extremely sanitised version of one religion being presented on this thread. Sanitised to the extent that another poster quoting from the fundamental text of that religion had their posts deleted for being inflammatory. (I myself do not read the Koran, but posted disapprovingly from the Old Testament ; Jewish and Christian posters have not requested that that post be nixed.)

Alternative views are available. Here is some interesting reading for you since you are heartily in favour of open-mindedness:

theconversation.com/what-its-like-to-be-gay-and-a-muslim-61128

https://www.secularism.org.uk/

ex-muslim.org.uk/

https://www.aklimabibi.com/muslim-women-in-the-uk-are-held-back-by-misogyny-and-patriarchy/

Or there is the 2016 Casey review on the lack of integration, which I cannot bring myself to link, as it is such a mind-blowingly shallow and impractical document. It touches on real problems e.g. the isolation of non-working Bangladeshi women who cannot speak English and are therefore in a state of total dependency and vulnerability, then quickly fucks them in the "too hard, tackle later" pile.

But then some of you derisively shriek that people are "white saviours" for caring about that. Which is where the conversation is supposed to end, you think.

Only it doesn't, does it?

@Mihrimah- yes I’m talking about this country, about people who think it acceptable to bring their antisemitism into this country, and who never suggest that Hamas surrender, in their numerous marches and protests which disrupt Londoners lives, intimidate British Jews and cost taxpayers a fortune. You mentioned Muslim doctors so I mentioned these disruptive Muslim HCPs in their scrubs out in public, filming themselves for social media. What do you think of their behaviour? Is it professional? How do you think it makes their patients feel?

I honestly think you are confusing different things and bundling them into one pot and saying "bad". I said you were confusing extreme Islam with regular Islam in my last post. But in this post you are confusing things by (a) not realising that societal problems exist in relation to every culture not just Islam; and (b) not recognising politically and agenda driven critiques of Islam (and other cultural groups) for what they are and (c) developing a theory about religious people and hell which doesn't exist in the way you think it does

Taking (a) (b) and (c) separately below:

(a) Following Islam Judaism Christianity AND being part of any culture or group including secular groups is going to have positives and negatives, this goes for every social group within the UK - so I don't think you are a "white saviour" and I think that if you want to show concern about women who are isolated in the UK then there is nothing to criticise in relation to that in itself - however -
you will not be able to help anyone if you slam an entire belief system and culture and you will be able to help better if you understand the belief system and culture better and that means listening to people giving you other perspectives (they are not sanitised perspectives) - you will not be able to help anyone or lobby for their interests if you have very partisan views on an entire religion (partisan views will lead to you being called a bigot/aggro/rejection and that would be a shame if your genuine motivation is to help people)

(b) You may not be aware of this, but a lot of articles and media reports cynically try to sway people's views about all sorts of things whether about Islam, about countries which the west want to control, about countries which have a lot of resources which cynical people in the west want to get free access too - you would not believe the shananigans which goes on behind the scenes - all of the articles you linked need critical thought applied. This doesn't mean there is zero truth, but it is likely that the information is misrepresented, spun, slanted so as to get people like you angry - good decent people who get really angry and this causes conflict and it ends up justifying disgusting wars and horrific loss of life. None of the things you linked represent how everyone thinks and there is a lack of balance. To understand any issue properly you need balance, perspectives, to understand all the relevant POVs.

(c) Most people with faith try to live their life according to their faith and do things which genuinely and practically help others, they don't go round casting judgement on others and rarely imagine anyone in hell. I personally fully support secular enjoyment of Christmas and many other events. So no I definitely have not mentally given you a future in hell! I am not brainwashed about anything either.

Sorry, lots of typos - I meant "access to" not "access too"

@PreciousMomentsHun

Of course it's acceptable and even encouraged for people to care about vulnerable groups like Muslim women who are oppressed. But not all women who are Muslim are oppressed - can you understand that statement?

Islam is not misogynistic, I have tried to explain to you that cultural influences are the culprit here.

Therefore even if you have secularism then there will still be all these issues you are blaming Islam and other religions for.

Yes we don't like women being forced to wear a headscarf or a burkini on the beach - but what if she wants to? What if a non Muslim wants to wear a full coverage swim suit with a swim cap (basically a burkini) to the beach - would you still opposed her for wearing it because it doesn't fit with the British way of life?

Or what if I wanted to go to the beach wearing a full Spiderman suit because I wanted to - sure I will get a few stares the same way perhaps a lady wearing a burkini would because it's not the choice of British beach war, but if it is what I want to do - would it not be intolerant to stop me or make me feel like I do not belong on the beach?

You mentioned living in Japan in one of your posts which is a secular country - you do realise in Japan married women who want an abortion are required to get spousal consent even for the pill? Is that not misogynistic? And it is not due to any religious influences.

A good solution to start with would be education; why are so many people,( and not just the Bangladeshi women from the linked article) not either in work or education if they are able bodied? Why is our country allowing this?

Getting rid of the hijab, or niqab because we think it is oppressive to women may appear to have solved an issue - because then you will not see what you believe to be oppression.

However, a Muslim woman wearing a bikini to the beach can be oppressed in other ways and a Muslim woman who decides to cover up fully may not be oppressed at all.

There are also other and more serious issues such as female genital mutilation which is not in any religious scripture and actually predates religion - so if you get rid of religion, it would still happen.

Men have always assumed the more dominant role physically and socially due to evolution and sexual solution and competition for resources - this is where cultural influences come in whereby women were left to hide in a cave and care for their children way before religion and divinity was even a concept that humans could comprehend.

With regards to my last point above which will be confusing to those who have not read the Qur'an, yes I believe in Science and Islam - evolution does not contradict Islam they go together, the the verse below describes the big bang theory:

"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"
— Quran 21:30

Edit:tagged

I encourage all of you to read The Strange Death of Europe by Douglas Murray.