Muslim women who dress modestly...

[TreatTreat]

If you're at the beach and you want to paddle in the sea, are you able to roll up your trousers? Genuinely wondering as I saw a muslim family on the beach today having great fun. The kids were paddling in the sea. The women weren't but this question sprung in my head.

I went to a catholic school I well understand nuns. It’s clear you don’t.

No, religion does not have a role on a societal level in the largely secular west. Individuals can do as they like. Can o walk into a mosque and sit amongst the men praying on an equal basis?

The history of the West is largely based on Christianity and before that pagan religions. Its institutions and culture are tied into this history therefore in order to understand the West it is important to understand Christianity to understand society.,other religions are irrelevant on a societal level and should be kept private

@TheHazelCritic - you don't get to call people racist to try and shut down their valid argument or criticisms. And you keep reiterating that all these medieval practices like child marriage, forced marriage etc are cultural and yet the one linking, constant with all these cultures is Islam and what the abusers use to justify it. As a result there is massive scale abuses which other muslims turn a blind eye to.
My mother was brought up in Ireland by nuns in the 1930s and was physically and emotionally abused. Ireland was a god fearing, (and as a result) also a highly misogynistic society. Eventually, over time, the Catholic church has been hugely criticised and scandals have blown up over historical sexual abuse etc and the church has completely lost its power in places like Ireland and guess what? Women can be who they want to be and are not kowtowing to the puritanical, woman hating religions.

There's no such thing as "dresses modestly". It's a word that means nothing in the context of dress, because if you are an Only Fans prostitute you'd think wearing anything was being modest whereas if you are made to wear a burqa you'd think showing your arms was immodest.

I don't think so, all sorts of things pop into my head. I'm a very curious person though.

She didn’t just post verses only did she

I posted some verses to try and explain as coralsnail above asked me to

have I made derogatory comments and quoted anyone’s religious scriptures to insult?
no
im very respectful to all religions

she made some very rude and derogatory comments for that to happen

@Mihrimah "Hope that helps!"

Not really @Mihrimah because all you've quoted is good in theory - what we see in practise around us (with our eyes) is very different.

fwiw Mihramah I have no problem with you dissecting the Bible (the formative text for my civilisation) and making critical remarks about it. Be as derogatory as you like. It was written partly by Jewish, partly by Christian men thousands of years ago. They certainly are not beyond reproach and criticism. Some people think it was the word inspired by God. If so, He is "old enough and ugly enough" (as the saying goes) to cope with our reactions to it. He's heard it all before...

We have to discuss and understand the Bible if we hope to understand and properly participate in life in Western countries.

She wasn’t suggesting the women were pathetic; she was suggesting that men’s expectations in that society were pathetic.

Absolutely, I love a good discussion about the Bible, our history, art and culture are so intertwined with Christianity it’s the shared story everyone who is part of Western society needs to understand.

I mean the Life of Brian wouldn’t be as funny without a knowledge of the Bible.

many regularly used phrases are based on knowledge of the Bible, it’s a shared knowledge of a society which allows us to communicate.

If they created a similar film based on Mohammed I doubt I’d find it as funny because I wouldn’t get the cultural or religious references.

All very good points.

I think what a lot of these people who default to "you're an Islamophobe and a racist" when we reject these nonsensical and misogynist ideas about sexual purity, "modest" coverings and so on genuinely fail to grasp is that our women also went through all this puritanism and misogyny, many times over as Christian fanaticism ebbed and flowed, and having finally reached a point of secularism and almost equal participation in all aspects of public life, we really do NOT want to revert to that.

There is nothing at all shameful about a woman's face or body. There is nothing empowering or holy about hiding yourself away from society. There is nothing unreasonable about expecting a man to see a woman and refrain from raping her because he saw her hair or ankles or thighs. And guess what, the vast majority of men dgaf / are actually capable of controlling themselves.

lol you do know that Chat has bias??

I don’t think I made any rude or derogatory comments.
I posted the verse that states that women’s views are half as important as men’s ( two women = one man when decision making)
the one where women are just receptacles for men’s seed
i could have included the one that says you can ‘strike’ your woman
the one that says women are a tithe for men?

the conversation was about mysoginistic views in the Quaran

And… it’s all very well saying ‘well, we don’t interpret it like this anymore’ … to fundamentalists, the whole point is that it IS the word of Allah and it is to be taken ‘as is’.

Can you sit amongst the men at the front to pray?
If you are not Muslim then why would you want to do this?

No Muslim women has ever wanted to pray at the front amongst men in a mosque.

However if I wanted to I could with a lot of stares because it is out of norm but no one would stop me.

You are questioning something that is just a norm for Muslims collectively and all are happy to do. Why would you not respect that?

In society respect is crucial; my partner and I are Muslim but our accountant is Jewish and he does home visits for our meetings usually as he doesn't live local - well guess what; he has in the past (first meeting) requested us to dress respectfully ( no revealing clothes clearly stated) which we are happy to do.

They also have their own standards of modesty which they strictly stick to and believe in.

He is also very respectful of our request to take shoes off, and we get on very well; meeting his dietary requests when offering food etc.

Cultural oppression is an issue; forced marriage, rape, etc. however this is something Muslims true to their faith are not in agreement with and we are raising it within our own community.

As a pro bono interpreter in the past, I have worked with Muslim women who were abused; one in particular was financial abuse and rape, yet after her divorce, she was still Muslim and practicing - she still wore her niqab because she wanted to and her faith was not the issue but her controlling, abusive partner was.

I have also worked with a Polish woman who was abused financially and sexually the exact same way as the above example; because the men think they can trap women by making them feel inferior and not allowing them to work or have their rights in the name of religion whichever one it is.

Men have always misinterpreted everything to suit their needs for control and power.

Even during rape rapists will very well know that a woman is refusing yet he will think "oh well dressed like that she is asking for it"

Also, religion does have a role in civilization even in the west; you cannot argue it has not played a role in shaping it to where we are today.

We have marriages which is a religious ceremony; the most popular and then we have social norms such as separate bathrooms for men and women which you cannot just walk into because you want to.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the Abraham religions which have all shaped the West - yes countries in the EU like Bosnia are predominantly Muslim and even countries like Spain were under the influence of Islam.

To simply say other religions are irrelevant and should be kept private is rather close minded, the opposite is true actually and I say this as someone who has roots somewhere in the Middle East whereby we have Christians, Muslims, Jewish and worshippers of the oldest pagan religion living together, respectfully!

If that was the case, then everyone regardless of faith would be going outside completely nude.

However regardless of religion, some women actually like covering up for whatever reason or dressing however they are comfortable.

There are women who don't like wearing short dresses and would rather wear a long sundress.

Are you going to tell them as well that she should show her legs to feel more empowered?

That's why I said Muslim women being dressed head to toe.....
Rather than just Muslim women.

@SonK You fundamentally misunderstand the West and our history by downplaying Christianity as its shaper. It drove everything. Everything. From the formation of the common law to the abolition of slavery. Our current culture of pandering and self-flagellation is directly traceable to those deeply held notions of original sin, Catholic guilt IMO.

If you think Judaism and Islam shaped the West except as bit players (and often just as convenient enemies and scapegoats, particularly the Jewish communities), you truly truly do not understand our history.

Excellent post . Thank you for this perspective. 👏

You've raised a really valid point and one which I've never seen adequately addressed. Christianity has moved with the times and interpretations have changed to encompass shifting societal norms; so the biblical statement which okays chastising your wife for example, is no longer taken literally and no one believes it's acceptable to use violence against your spouse! But Islam can never change : it's seen as the literal word of God and to try and alter interpretations would be a type of blasphemy. See the Quran references above about menstruation for instance - it's considered to make a woman impure, unclean and sex is not allowed. Now, when the Quran was written the instruction would have made a kind of 'sense' as public hygiene/ sanitation was woeful and abstaining from sex during periods would help prevent the spread of infections and disease - all very good and sensible. But we're now in the 21st century where nearly everyone has access to water or at least basic washing facilities, but the instruction hasn't changed to accommodate modern life - there's no ' updated ' advice to give yourself a wash before and after if you fancy indulging in a bit of period sex! Same for clothing, haram and halal activities, homosexuality etc etc; all instructions set in stone over a thousand years ago. There can never be movement, progression or change because the religion itself dictates that can't happen.

Yes sex during menstruation is not allowed Islamically and never will be because the fact still remains that the cervix and pH balance of the vagina during that time changes and that difference can make women more prone to bacterial and viral infections (thrush for example).

No amount of washing is going to change that.

We are also not allowed to fast or do the 5 daily prayers during menstruation and to be quite frank when I am on my period, I don't want to pray; all I want to do is binge watch my favourite shows and eat, so I would say that works in favour of women.

However, now this is where it gets confusing for non Muslims understandably; we actually can pray when menstruating since prayer is in its simplest terms ones private relationship/ call for God to listen to them- we can do that whenever we want to but we are exempt from the more formal prayer which requires prayer clothes and a praying mat (for both men and women).

I m not too sure but I think for most Hindus they have similar guidelines around praying and menstruation; it is a time of rest for the women.

By the way if anyone wants to have period sex no one in real life is policing them about it, or inspecting whether they are and sentencing them to death over it!

There are provisions which Muslims are happy to follow; for instance not everyone wants to drink alcohol, or perhaps some do then later on want to quit drinking and refrain from it because they now believe in not drinking alcohol.

I have not downplayed anything; you are the one who said other religions are irrelevant.

Whether you like it or not Islam has influenced the West, a minor example; Islamic architecture influenced European architects during the 12th and 13th centuries, and it has particularly shown in France and England due to the Gothic architecture from Spain under the Islamic 8th-century Umayyad Caliphate within the Iberian Peninsula.

One thing you are right about is your last point; no, I do not completely understand the history here because it is rather complex, I am no way near an expert on the matter, yet I am able and open minded to further my knowledge as with all subjects and matters that interest me or I am concerned about.

However, you do not sound very open minded; I am sorry you hold a grudge over Islam because quite simply all religions have verses and quotes that may shock most - but no need to pick it all apart and use it to segregate people further.

Firstly, thank you for replying so honestly and reasonably, and not screaming ''racist' or 'islamaphobe!', if anyone dares to raise a question.

It's interesting to see things from your perspective and how you apply practices in your own daily life. You appear far more tolerant with others who choose to not follow ' the rules' in things like alcohol, sex, and prayer practices. I take from your post that you see these rules as more ' guidelines ' that you can choose to accept or not, and which have no bearing on your religious commitment.

@SonK there is some influence, most interestingly to me in the influx of Arabic words brought into English, but those are IMO relatively trivial details and more a reflection of our own tendency to absorb. They are not in any significant way what makes the West what it is, culturally, socially or legally.

As to the acidity of the vagina during menstruation, I shall leave the study of such details to your scholars. No one normal cares how any other couple arranges their sex lives, truly. I can see that if you did not choose your own spouse, any excuse not to have sex with them must be a huge relief.

You are welcome!

Well it's all about free will - this is fundamental in Islam and it is about a lot more then following the way of life set out in Quran - yes the provisions are a way of life which cannot be forced - once forced it is meaningless and inhuman.

True Islam is more about good deeds verses bad deeds.

For instance if I am wearing a headscarf, praying and abstaining from eating pork and drinking alcohol but one day I harm an innocent creature for no real necessary reason (for example killing a mouse instead of letting it outside) then I have sinned.

In such a case, Islamically I am a bad person and a lady who is a prostitute, drinks and isn't even Muslim but loves animals and is kind to all is actually better than me and has better morals.

Islam believes we should only judge eachother on our deeds and behaviour.
How we dress, what we do behind closed doors (as long as no one is being harmed or abused) should not be judged or even talked about.

Islamically, I am not even allowed to say women dressed in revealing clothes are slutty - because that would be slander and true Muslims believe slander as one of the deadliest sins due to how it can harm others and it's impact mentally.