Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Muslim women who dress modestly...

596 replies

TreatTreat · 12/07/2025 18:49

If you're at the beach and you want to paddle in the sea, are you able to roll up your trousers? Genuinely wondering as I saw a muslim family on the beach today having great fun. The kids were paddling in the sea. The women weren't but this question sprung in my head.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
QuickThinking · 16/07/2025 15:23

SonK · 16/07/2025 15:12

Iran and Saudi Arabia are not genuine Islamic countries - the religion is being used as a mere tool.

A lot of Muslims like myself believe it is to control people and as a steppingstone for Saudi Arabia’s crazy and unrealistic imperialist dreams, but that's a whole other debate I am not going to get into.

Yes they have capital punishment for homosexuality - this is Shari'a law (a law created during the 6/7th century - I think) which Iran and Saudi Arabia are not even practicing justly in the first place - they are interpreting it their own way to suit their agenda.

It's very complex and I do not have enough knowledge to explain this well without it getting confusing!

Simply the leaders using capital punishment as a crime for homosexuality are being unjust; the irony is they are using their free will to impose capital punishment but ignoring the fact that Islam needs free will to work - you cannot impose Islam on anyone, you cannot even force women to wear the headscarf, a woman has to do it because she believes in dressing that way and wants to.

Can I just say, I really love your posts! they're so balanced and reasoned and your not afraid to shy away from difficult questions. The strength of your faith shines through and I can see how it helps to make you a better person. I am still critical of aspects of Islam; as noted above I think it's practiced very differently in inner cities and impoverished areas where education/class/social structure/culture all play a part, but that doesn't detract from the peace and positivity it's clearly brought to your life.

Tandora · 16/07/2025 15:27

notnorman · 16/07/2025 14:20

Punishable by death in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other places

Uganda also has the death penalty for homosexuality and it’s a Christian country. It doesn’t mean that’s a Christian law.

PreciousMomentsHun · 16/07/2025 15:46

Tandora · 16/07/2025 15:27

Uganda also has the death penalty for homosexuality and it’s a Christian country. It doesn’t mean that’s a Christian law.

It is, though. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all quite clear on the matter.

Leviticus 20:13
New International Version

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Move away from those three faiths, and we might approach something like rationality and humanity.

We have been, as a society, moving closer and closer to genuine secularism little by little for the last several hundred years.

Now is not the time to regress with a resurgence of these millenia-old scriptures and all the hatred and division they sow and always shall sow.

SonK · 16/07/2025 17:03

@QuickThinking Thank you!

All the questions on here have been good, especially the difficult ones!

You see there were aspects I myself were highly critical of even though I am a believer; it's the only way we can learn and Muslims are encouraged in the Qur'an to always further their knowledge.

For instance I actually always thought it was strange and unfair that a man could have 4 wives and kept on digging for the truth.

Well it turns out Muslim men cannot have 4 wives just because they fancy it or at all really because there is a very strict condition and if not met it would be a grave sin on the man - that is all 4 wives have to be treated equally in every aspect.

Objectively we all know that is impossible! The man will have a preference / favourite or will be unable to treat them the same emotionally and physically so its purpose is actually a deterrent to having more than one wife.

No matter how able a man thinks he is (financially or physically) he cannot even treat two women equally let alone 4.

A simple example I can think of: there is only one New year's eve - who will he watch the fireworks with? Surely one will get upset and he cannot take it in turns each year as he cannot guarantee whoever's turn it is next year to be alive.

That example is a little silly, but it's less complex than let's say fertility; let's assume a man can impregnate one wife but not the other; even if the woman has fertility health issues and the man doesn't, Islam recognises how difficult it would be for the woman and the pain it would cause her; it's not nice to put any woman in that position - so again it's a deterrent because he has to have children with both wives if they both want it, even the same amount if that's what they want.

I also decided to dig even deeper and find out why having 4 wives was mentioned at all.

I find it is due to the context during the 6th century when men had upto 4 wives.
The importance of this time is there were a lot of ongoing wars with children orphaned and women widowed. Now they were pretty vulnerable as you can imagine as this was a time whereby women didn't work or have anything to their name, add becoming a widow with children to the equation things weren't looking good for them.

It is during such times the remaining men of financial capability could marry a woman who had been widowed for her sake and the orphans.

The woman at the time were happy to have been offered marriage (it was not forced) because it gave them the same rights as the first wife (not widowes), more protection and security for their children.

The men in countries such as Saudia Arabia marrying upto 4 women just because they fancy it and want a 'newer model' are not behaving Islamically at all; it is very disrespectful towards women when God only allowed it during dire times for the well-being of women and orphans.

You make a good point; I have come across Muslims who wear the hijab, refrain from drinking and pray - which are all central to Islam but it is only practicing it on the surface. It is a lot deeper than that and I think, I cannot say for certain or generalise, but perhaps it's due to the language. The Qur'an is written in Arabic, but not all Muslims speak Arabic so will not understand everything

I cannot speak Arabic - I have had to learn a lot to understand it all.

I think some cultures are simply told "this is haram and this is halal - if you do this or that then it's hell for you" and they haven't been taught core, more complex principles such as forgiveness and kindness which are very important.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 16/07/2025 17:30

PreciousMomentsHun · 16/07/2025 15:46

It is, though. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all quite clear on the matter.

Leviticus 20:13
New International Version

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Move away from those three faiths, and we might approach something like rationality and humanity.

We have been, as a society, moving closer and closer to genuine secularism little by little for the last several hundred years.

Now is not the time to regress with a resurgence of these millenia-old scriptures and all the hatred and division they sow and always shall sow.

Well exactly- we have moved on in the West from the rule made to suit society hundreds, if not thousands of years
ago. It’s fine if you want that as your individual belief system but your personal beliefs should have no effect on wider society or anyone else.

With the level of education now, I find it absolutely incredible any one anywhere would follow a religion, apart from the social/community aspect even the most cursory investigation will expose it as nothing more than an amalgamation of competing pre existing religions whose myths and legends have been appropriated and rules include to achieve an aim, usually some kind of power/land grab.

Do people honestly believe God impregnated a virgin (yet another non-traditional pregnancy) rather than an oops moment. Or some dude in a cave actually was given instructions by an arch angel rather than being affected by damp spores/lack of food and desire to conquer territories. I mean I can understand someone going for is 1500 years ago (just) but in today’s age, nah!

SonK · 16/07/2025 18:48

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 16/07/2025 17:30

Well exactly- we have moved on in the West from the rule made to suit society hundreds, if not thousands of years
ago. It’s fine if you want that as your individual belief system but your personal beliefs should have no effect on wider society or anyone else.

With the level of education now, I find it absolutely incredible any one anywhere would follow a religion, apart from the social/community aspect even the most cursory investigation will expose it as nothing more than an amalgamation of competing pre existing religions whose myths and legends have been appropriated and rules include to achieve an aim, usually some kind of power/land grab.

Do people honestly believe God impregnated a virgin (yet another non-traditional pregnancy) rather than an oops moment. Or some dude in a cave actually was given instructions by an arch angel rather than being affected by damp spores/lack of food and desire to conquer territories. I mean I can understand someone going for is 1500 years ago (just) but in today’s age, nah!

It's interesting you find it absolutely incredible that people still believe in a religion / God.

I on the other end of the spectrum find Atheism intriguing and incredible as by definition it is the belief that there is no God without a doubt but how would anyone know that for sure without examining every single piece of evidence in the universe?

It is very different from Agnostic views which I can understand

PreciousMomentsHun · 16/07/2025 19:03

Oh yes, @myheartycoralsnail . And Mary Mother o' God remained a virgin all her life, of course. I'm so glad she did or the classic Life of Brian "she is, she is" scene would never have been written!

What I find most intriguing about religions being portrayed as sources of beauty, love, kindness etc etc by their proselytisers is the relentless cherry-picking that goes on. They'll focus on that fluffy peace'n'love quote, and blithely gloss over the brutal bits.

Possibly my favourite example of this is Psalm 137. Children's voices sound so poignant singing "By the waters of Babylon / We lay down and wept for thee, Zion / We remember thee, Zion..." in wistful lament. The perfect round song for a singing assembly, and of course the source of the Boney M hit.

But how many people ever read Psalm 137 to its disturbing and bloodthirsty end?

Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks

I mean, fucksake.

Morgenrot25 · 17/07/2025 08:03

SonK · 16/07/2025 18:48

It's interesting you find it absolutely incredible that people still believe in a religion / God.

I on the other end of the spectrum find Atheism intriguing and incredible as by definition it is the belief that there is no God without a doubt but how would anyone know that for sure without examining every single piece of evidence in the universe?

It is very different from Agnostic views which I can understand

There is, quite simply, no evidence of any gods. Not being able to explain something logically or scientifically (yet) doesn't mean a god is responsible.

SonK · 17/07/2025 09:18

Morgenrot25 · 17/07/2025 08:03

There is, quite simply, no evidence of any gods. Not being able to explain something logically or scientifically (yet) doesn't mean a god is responsible.

Based on science itself it's illogical to state there is no God or anything divine with absolute certainty due to the vastness of the universe and exoplanets which haven't been explored yet. We haven't even been able to explore every nook and cranny of our own planet...

Just because we don't have access to all the evidence that may exist, it doesn't equate to there being no evidence.

There are people who believe in druids and magic, I find it shocking, absurd and refuse to believe it because it doesn't make sense to my mind.

But I have to be honest with myself; can I say with certainty that it's all a lie and none of it is real? I can't, because I don't know and that's why I find Atheism intriguing.

Morgenrot25 · 17/07/2025 09:30

SonK · 17/07/2025 09:18

Based on science itself it's illogical to state there is no God or anything divine with absolute certainty due to the vastness of the universe and exoplanets which haven't been explored yet. We haven't even been able to explore every nook and cranny of our own planet...

Just because we don't have access to all the evidence that may exist, it doesn't equate to there being no evidence.

There are people who believe in druids and magic, I find it shocking, absurd and refuse to believe it because it doesn't make sense to my mind.

But I have to be honest with myself; can I say with certainty that it's all a lie and none of it is real? I can't, because I don't know and that's why I find Atheism intriguing.

Based on science, it's definitely illogical to believe in gods.

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 09:35

@Morgenrot yep. In any event, onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.

SonK · 17/07/2025 10:04

Morgenrot25 · 17/07/2025 09:30

Based on science, it's definitely illogical to believe in gods.

Then perhaps you can explain to me using science why it is illogical to believe in God.

Also what is science anyway; it's all based on observations, mens observations mainly.

Have you seen that 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom form water in real life, even with the necessary tools? Yet you still believe it to be true and real and expect students to simply believe it when it is taught to them - but where is the proof at the time, can students refuse to believe it in an exam and ask for irrefutable proof?

So why do you believe anything science tells you without having done your own observation, experiment, analysis and review to prove its all real to yourself?

I am only asking rhetorical questions, to illustrate that religion and science, if you really think about it are not very different - both were discovered by men for a start.

SonK · 17/07/2025 10:10

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 09:35

@Morgenrot yep. In any event, onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat.

You have quoted a legal principle which applies to the law; not matters of science.

Even legally the burden of proof shifts in certain circumstances and areas of the law

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/07/2025 10:30

I think people are getting side tracked here by whether or not there is a god/gods/higher power. It’s totally irrelevant. The point in issue is the man made rules of organised religion. You only have to look at the history and development of religions to see that even a cursory glance snd application of a little critical thinking will tell you that. The existence or non existence of god /gods is entirely separate

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 10:57

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/07/2025 10:30

I think people are getting side tracked here by whether or not there is a god/gods/higher power. It’s totally irrelevant. The point in issue is the man made rules of organised religion. You only have to look at the history and development of religions to see that even a cursory glance snd application of a little critical thinking will tell you that. The existence or non existence of god /gods is entirely separate

Edited

Absolutely.

Organised religion has a very nasty tendency to help men get sex, money, and power - and that's not just the Abrahamic religions, though it couldn't get much more blatant in those three.

Keep it out of public life and let it all fade away.

SonK · 17/07/2025 11:01

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/07/2025 10:30

I think people are getting side tracked here by whether or not there is a god/gods/higher power. It’s totally irrelevant. The point in issue is the man made rules of organised religion. You only have to look at the history and development of religions to see that even a cursory glance snd application of a little critical thinking will tell you that. The existence or non existence of god /gods is entirely separate

Edited

You are right, we are getting side tracked and the thread has derailed!

Yet I think it's completely normal for people to question why we believe in God and organised religion in the first place, and in doing so why people practice the religion by following the rules and guidelines - for example wearing a headscarf / choice of swimwear or only eating food that is kosher.

It's all interwoven

SonK · 17/07/2025 11:20

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 10:57

Absolutely.

Organised religion has a very nasty tendency to help men get sex, money, and power - and that's not just the Abrahamic religions, though it couldn't get much more blatant in those three.

Keep it out of public life and let it all fade away.

Not everyone believes organised religion is man mad for power and corruption.

I believe in my religion and I will not let it fade away.

I cannot tell you to get rid of whatever ideology or concept you believe in and let it fade away - can I?

Beliefs whatever they are; religion, ideologies etc. they can be questionable and up for debate at any time.

Put it this way: If a woman swimming in a burkini doesn't believe she is oppressed and is happy how can you be certain she is oppressed and why should she keep her preference of swimwear out of the public because it's based on her religion?

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 12:30

I am not trying to dissuade you from your religion. That's your lookout.

I will steadily oppose every encroachment of your religion on my country's way of life when its adherents encourage practices rooted in shame, misogyny, inequality and intolerance.

Tandora · 17/07/2025 14:30

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 12:30

I am not trying to dissuade you from your religion. That's your lookout.

I will steadily oppose every encroachment of your religion on my country's way of life when its adherents encourage practices rooted in shame, misogyny, inequality and intolerance.

I will steadily oppose every encroachment of your religion on my country's way of life when its adherents encourage practices rooted in shame, misogyny, inequality and intolerance.

First, There are millions of British Muslims. Second, this country is riddled with misogyny, inequality and forms of intolerance that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 14:53

To both points, my answer is, "I know. And?"

Mihrimah · 17/07/2025 15:38

Tandora · 17/07/2025 14:30

I will steadily oppose every encroachment of your religion on my country's way of life when its adherents encourage practices rooted in shame, misogyny, inequality and intolerance.

First, There are millions of British Muslims. Second, this country is riddled with misogyny, inequality and forms of intolerance that has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

Absolutely spot on
Thank you for that clarification.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/07/2025 15:44

Mihrimah · 17/07/2025 15:38

Absolutely spot on
Thank you for that clarification.

But it almost every other case it is seen as legitimate to challenge these things. Except if you challenge it in the context of Islam you quickly hear cries of islamaphobia.

Misogyny needs calling out all the time.

Charley50 · 17/07/2025 15:53

The term ‘modest’ clothing, implies that other clothing, (or its wearer) is ‘immodest,’ one definition of which is ‘lacking humility or decency.’ It’s a judgemental term which immediately creates a division between the sexes and between women who show skin and hair and those who don’t. So I wouldn’t call covering up ‘modest’ personally, and find the term a little insulting to women like me, who love the feel of sun and air on my skin. Additionally there are high incidences of rickets and vitamin D deficiency in girls and women who are fully covered. In London I see more and more very young girls, e.g. in infants school (mainly Somali?) fully covered apart from their face. I guess their teachers just have to accept this because the current social climate is that we cannot question certain cultural practices without being accused of Islamophobia.

SonK · 17/07/2025 16:11

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/07/2025 15:44

But it almost every other case it is seen as legitimate to challenge these things. Except if you challenge it in the context of Islam you quickly hear cries of islamaphobia.

Misogyny needs calling out all the time.

You can question whatever you want - no issues there.

Islam is the opposite of misogyny; most people don't truly understand it and have been clouded by cultural influences and practices.

I can think of many examples; a simple one: Muslim women can work if they want to same as men yet they don't have to pay for a single thing and can simply keep all their earnings. It is unjust for a man to ask his wife to pay the bills or spend her own hard earned money even if she earns more than him.

However a man has to give his earnings to his wife for personal bills, expenses, clothing, salon appointments, holidays or simply because she wants a monthly allowance from his earnings - he still has to finance her lifestyle in addition to giving her the allowance and providing for their children.

This is a working woman we are talking about who can pay for her own way yet Islam states she doesn't have to pay for anything.

Does that truly sound like misogyny?

PreciousMomentsHun · 17/07/2025 16:16

And it would be pure craven cowardice to be so deterred, when women and children's freedom, health, happiness and lives are at stake.

Children need to learn from the earliest years that they can ALWAYS get help and be rescued from violence and coercion in the home, that no one has the right to make them feel ashamed over their clothing choices, that they have perfect freedom to date and marry whom they want to (if they want to), that they can be gay, that they need to stay in education as long as it is useful to them, and then get a job and save money so they have the most choices to travel or live independently as they please without family interference. And be encouraged to have experiences outside whatever it is that their home life offers them, be they musical or playing with puppies or visiting soup kitchens or raising money for the blind or learning hiphop dancing or doing debating competitions or going horse riding. And parents need to butt out, stop objecting to every blessed thing that we try to organise for the kids on cultural or religious grounds, and permit their kids to actually have a variety of enriching experiences that will help them later on in life to fully participate in life. Even if it's just to reminisce with their colleagues about how scary it was getting up on a horse and how they panicked and fell off.

And that is every British child of whatever background.