To want to nip this in the bud ( LGBTQ views , child )

[Calmorchaos]

I’m after some advice really on how to approach this.

I have always been the type of person to support anyone to be who they are. I’ve never shied away or shielded my children from the world - very much a ‘love is love’ person and always encouraged my children to support those who need it and be inclusive ( in terms of people being bullied , disabilities etc too ) .

My youngest is going into high school ( 11 ) . Over the past few months I’ve noticed a few comments such as “ there are 2 genders “ , “ I don’t support LGBTQ “ . I’ve addressed this in the moment . But recently he found out his new school has an LGBTQ assembly on a monthly basis and he has started saying he doesn’t want to go because “ he doesn’t support it” . I sat down and had a chat with him , I explained to him that it isn’t really his place to choose to not agree with it - it’s not a choice , i explained it as he could say he doesn’t agree with people eating meat as that is a choice he would be making , but someone’s sexuality is their feelings and not a choice.

I am sure comments will allow me to explain more how the conversation went from my side so I won’t drag this post on with that but his comments were unnerving :

• he believes someone chooses to be gay , they can control it but they choose it
• we can choose who we fall in love with
• if a friend of his told him he was gay he would still be friends with them but not as good because they chose to be gay and he doesn’t support it.

I know he is very young and he doesn’t understand and has things to learn. He is the sweetest boy and the way he said these things sounded scripted as though he has heard others say this . I know he is a child and it’s my job that guide him and that’s the advice I’m asking for , how do I address this? I’m not saying I need him to go around advocating I just don’t want these views becoming ingrained and he becomes the reason another student who is struggling, struggles more. I know I may be overreacting but this age and as the years go on is a time that he can be heavily influenced . He’s a quiet, sweet boy and I do believe he could be heavily influenced.

Another concerning thing is that when I asked him where he had heard all this and where it comes from he said his Dad .

Isn't that a tad ironic, coming from you?

The OP posted that some people "feel" as though they are trapped in the wrong body, and that her son can form his own opinions on the validity of that (but she was concerned by, and asking advice on, the homophobia.

Your feelings siren immediately started blaring, because, you say, that people cannot possibly feel that.

And before you try to debate it with me - those feelings do not make objective sense to me either, but I'm not going to deny that that is how some people feel, particularly since feelings do not need, and often do not have, a rational basis.

But you thought it very, very important to police what people were able to feel.

So very inclusive.

No, I think I will stay right here. With my opinions and my way of life and raise my kids how I see fit. In the State schools that I already pay for.

And YOU will have to bend a bit to put up with that, just like I have to bend a bit to put up with those I don't agree with.

Nope I won’t have to bend at all and neither will gay pupils who are very much entitled to inclusivity, assemblies, lunch clubs and not being subjected to homophobic rhetoric.

I would be coming down hard on any homophobia to be honest. Regarding gender, I would explain there are 2 sexes and gender is a load of nonsense.

Gosh, that post was 6 days ago - you are looking into this closely (but I’m the obsessed one, right?) but annoyingly for you, not closely enough.

These are the relevant bits of OPs posts below (I have included the PPs post to which she was responding as necessary context) .

She also observes that his views on sexual orientation and the idea of people ‘changing sex’ are ‘grouped together’ and coming from outside influences. That directly contradicts you and several PPs like fkletters etc who have spent the thread berating me for saying that for the boy it was all linked (and likely to do with the ‘LGBTQ’ propaganda he is being taught at school which leads him to the entirely logical conclusions on sexual orientation he makes based on the info he is given) and repeatedly insisting that there was no link whatsoever.

OP Yes , but as I try to explain to him there are people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body and they don’t choose to feel that way, some people disagree , but that is how they feel and it’s not a case of “ I want to be a boy today “ . I absolutely want him to understand that it’s not a case of choosing your gender, it’s feelings that people have and cannot control.

PP I agree with PP. If your son “doesn’t support” homosexuality that’s a problem. If your son “doesn’t support” ideas such as people can change sex, some people are trapped in the wrong sex body, or the concept of multiple genders then this is a totally legitimate viewpoint.
OP (responding to PP above) I have different views to that , but you are right he can form his own opinions in regard to changing sex etc - however , these opinions need to be formed with a full understanding and he does not have that. The views he has are grouped right now together with sexuality being a choice - which could process into homophobic views . They are also coming from outside influences . This is what I want to address.

Then I said
With respect, there may be some things you need to understand better before you try and guide your son
Nobody is trapped in the wrong body. No one has any concept of what it feels like to be the opposite sex so no one can identify a feeling they have as ‘being a man inside’.

Then you said
But you thought it very, very important to police what people were able to feel.
In your rather reaching attempt at a ‘gotcha’ you failed to read what I actually said which was nothing to do with ‘feelings’, it was an objective statement of fact. Nobody is trapped in the wrong body.

The only mention of ‘feelings’ I made is the obvious fact that it is impossible for a man to know how it feels to be born as female, socialised as female since before birth, and how to deal with a female body. The only thing they can base it on is what we tell them and their observations (hence the men taking on strange stereotypical ‘female’ attributes - they claim they suddenly can’t park a car well after ‘transition’ and that they cry a lot etc - that is their perception of what a woman is).

So I know you were all excited at the thought you’d caught me out but I don’t think you have. And you prompted me to go back and verify the fact that OP knows his opinions are linked and so it is perfectly valid for me to point to the messaging on ‘LGBTQ’ matters re ‘gender identity’ as a likely source for this ‘homophobia’. @Fk48fj

As you were.

I’m not sure how you got there but no. 🙄

Interesting how keen you are to police people’s thoughts and feelings though.

Especially as the gender ideology belief that ‘gender identity’ is more important than sex or that people can ‘change’ sex is the ultimate homophobia as it ends in men who identify as women claiming they are lesbians despite being in possession of a fully equipped male body and berating lesbians for not wanting to sleep with them.

If that’s not homophobic I don’t know what is. It’s certainly not 11 yr old boys getting confused with mixed messages coming from his school and many areas of society. But you know that really.

Shrug. No skin off my nose. But not everyone is going to cheer along and support everyone and be mates with everyone for whatever reason. Nor are they going to quietly swallow your nonsense. Keep pushing and you will only see the middle move further and further right.

My kids are not attending LGBTQ assemblies, they are not attending religious assemblies (of any flavour) - to be honest I don't actually see that much difference between the two.

They ARE going to State schools with your kids, they are NOT going to be punished for free thought, critical thinking, making their own decisions, and for being friends with who they want to be (and for not being friends with who they don't). We will not be leaving our own country to accommodate your intolerance.

People can live their lives how they want. Doesn't mean we have to 'support' them.

Tell you what, the TQ+ have done a fantastic job at fucking up the situation for the LGBs. I remember when the drive was for people to be left the fuck alone to live their lives with whom they wanted to. Was (am still am) totally behind that.

Still, got to trans that gay right out of the kids eh? While at the same time as shouting Homophobic! At anyone who doesn't clap along like a seal and offer their kids up next.

It’s the summary of basic safeguarding requirements. You keep quoting KCSIE 2025 and then you’ve pointed out that it is not operational until September 1st 2025 so are you actually trying to claim there are no safeguarding rules currently operational in schools?

Teachers have boasted about running these clubs and concealing the fact from parents, sometimes they are called by a different name. Children have also been socially transitioned by their school (despite the potentially harmful and long lasting consequences) and it hidden from parents.

This approach has been heavily promoted and rewarded by activists and carried out by the Stonewalled schools and those who employ activist orgs like No Outsiders etc.

This is not being done for ‘safeguarding’ purposes - that is an activist line from years ago. Safeguarding 101 is that if teachers suspect a child is not safe at home, they have to follow specific reporting and referral procedures. They are not allowed to keep secrets with children for very obvious reasons.

This article outlines some of the issues and and others:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/lgbtq-pride-safeguarding-scandal/

It sounds like you might need some refresher training if you think there are currently no safeguarding rules in schools and that teachers are allowed to keep secrets with students.

I agree with your general point. The main issue as I see it is that the ideas around ‘gender identity’ are inherently homophobic (claiming that ‘gender identity’ is more important than sex and that gay clubs must admit members of the opposite sex if they identify as such for example)

This boys school is teaching ‘gender ideology’ as well as sexual orientation so these 11 yr olds are making a logical leap that if a person can choose to be a different ‘gender’ meaning sex, then that obviously changes at the very minimum the name of your sexual orientation if you are attracted to that person.

Ie. A girl is attracted to other girls but feels that she’s a boy inside so ‘transitions’. Any romantic relationship she has with a girl would be viewed as a heterosexual relationship under gender ideology. That’s called transing away the gay and was widely observed at the Tavistock clinic.

Obviously gender ideology allows for much choice in ‘identity’ so ‘gender fluid people choose if they are feeling more male or female in a particular day and expect to be treated as such (at one point in the gender madness schools were giving out coloured wristbands to indicate which ‘gender’ had been selected for the day and kids and teachers were expected to ‘respect the pronouns’) so you can see where the idea that you can also select your sexual orientation comes from especially when you’re 11 and aren’t really ready for any of it.

Omg you are still talking about trans people.

Being trans is not homophobic. Supporting the recognition and inclusion of trans people is not homophobic.

What is absolutely homophobic is normalising the idea that most young people “can’t help” being “disapproving” of gay people and that this is what “tolerance” is.

😂

Oh dear, you’re repeating yourself again.

So I’ll have to repeat myself again (although I’m the one that gets berated for doing that - I must have hit a nerve).

At no point have I said that ‘being trans’ is homophobic. Gender ideology IS homophobic for reasons I have clearly explained.

Although as a side note, many early transsexual groups like the Beaumont Society were openly anti gay as they didn’t want to be associated with them at all. This obviously ‘changed’ (on the surface) when Stonewall was given large donations to adopt them as their new cause in 2015.

What is absolutely homophobic is normalising the idea that most young people “can’t help” being “mildly disapproving” of gay people and that this is what “tolerance” is.

Seriously. These kids are 11. Many are still prepubescent and not ready to have or understand these conversations. The fact that schools are giving them entirely mixed and confusing messages (as I described 2 posts ago) is making it worse. Despite your repeated claims to the contrary, OP recognises this (she doesn’t understand the ‘making it worse’ part but she’s made the initial link).

Many gay men and lesbians have distanced themselves from gender ideology because they can see the harm it is doing to the overall public perception by lumping the TQ+ in with LGB. Far more people know that you can’t change sex than are genuinely homophobic. Therefore the damage is being done by the TQ+.

Are you against homophobia?

You keep referring to "gender ideology". I would ask you what you mean by it but I already know and I really don't think this is the place to discuss it when there's a whole board on this.

Being trans is legitimate, ok and needs to be accepted/ respected.

That is not homophobic, regardless of the knots you've tied yourself into with your dogmatic logics.

What is homophobic is normalising the idea that most young people can't help being "disapproving" of people being gay, and that's what we call "tolerance".

Did you, as a TRA and proponent of gender ideology, just say ‘you’ve tied yourself into with your dogmatic logics’?! with no hint of irony?!

People can accept that trans people exist, like flat earthers exist, but no one has to respect anyone or anything if they don’t want to. It’s not something you can demand.

Being trans is a real and legitimate form of human diversity. Trans people can't help who they are and deserve that their humanity, dignity and rights are upheld.

This conversation has nothing to do with homophobia.

Disapproving of being gay, believing that being gay is a 'choice', not wanting to be friends with someone who is gay, is homophobic.

In the same way that we would want to educate someone who harboured racist feelings towards others, we should seek to educate and support young people who are struggling with homophobia, as it is rooted in prejudice, misunderstanding and fear.

🤣 ‘Dogmatic logic’ aka knowing the people can’t change sex and ‘gender identity’ does not supersede sex in any meaningful way.

Who said “There’s none so blind as those who will not see”? Thankfully, for the safety and sanity of children, including gay ones, and, despite your efforts to the contrary, the promotion of tolerance and freedom of thought, many can see. And think.

This is an interesting article about the things being taught by some of the external organisations brought into schools. It demonstrates a lot about how OPs son could have reached his conclusions and the misrepresentation of law and basic facts in schools.

I think the problem faced by the gender ideologists is that none of it is based on demonstrable fact or reality, it is all down to internally experienced, subjective feelings. That’s why the thought and feelings policing of others is so important to them - there is no actual argument they can rely on.

www.transgendertrend.com/proud-trust-trans-inclusion-school-toolkit/

They aren’t a homogeneous group. They are just male or female like everyone else, who have the same rights as everyone else.

They aren’t a homogeneous group.

True.

They are just male or female like everyone else

Nope.

who have the same rights as everyone else.

Nope.

And not what this thread is about.

Highlighting a post here that focuses on the subject of the thread.

Discussion evolves, I’ll address points as they come up whether it’s directly about the OP or not. You aren’t the thread police. Engage or don’t.

And yes, trans people are just male or female (which remains the same from birth until they die), and have the same rights as everyone else.

As OP observed, the force teaming of LGB (sexuality) with TQ+ (identity) has created confusion. The enforcement nature in schools of the force teaming is having a detrimental effect on the LGB, thanks to the known harms of TQ+.

Just remember, it isn’t LGB that caused violent male rapists and paedophiles to be in women’s prisons (including those with a mother and baby unit). It isn’t LGB who caused the 11 yr old girl to be sexually assaulted at knifepoint by a trans identifying male allowed to go into the ladies rely because of gender ideology. It isn’t LGB who has caused the single sex toilets in vast numbers of schools to be made mixed sex resulting in several sexual assaults and attacks on girls already. It isn’t LGB that allowed a middle aged man who identifies as a woman to wander freely around the girls changing rooms while teenagers have to strip off their swimsuits. It isn’t LGB who caused a male on the volleyball court to cause a permanent brain injury to a girl by hitting her so hard with his shot, or a female hockey player who had her teeth smashed out by a boy hitting the ball with a male strength. I could go on.

The public are gaining awareness of these issues and dislike it intensely. The forced lumping of TQ+ in with LGB is only detrimental to and against the interests of
LGB. Therefore it is homophobic.

Nice evasion of my question though.

If they aren't male or female sex, what are they then?

And what rights don't they have?

And again :).

So why are you posting about trans people then?

It’s interesting to see Tandora, who speaks very energetically for the interests and desires of trans people in many many threads, be so determined to stop discussion on the causes of homophobia.

I have listened to quite a few gay men and lesbians and they are very concerned about what is being done ‘in their name’ ie the forced teaming of LGB with the TQ+. They are being asked to use their hard won gains in equality and acceptance to write a blank cheque for people to push harm to children, remove safeguards in society and even unquestioningly include the mysterious +.

Such a little symbol, so many questions. All unanswered.

Ahh I give up.

It's a shame that this thread that was about homophobia - by which I mean actual homophobia as in a belief that being gay is wrong - had to be turned into yet another anti-trans thread. But some people are just determined to make anti-trans propaganda the entire of mumsnet. It's very upsetting.