was I unreasonable to refuse to go an aquarium on welfare grounds

[pppppppickupapenguin]

I’d organised a meet up with my NCT group at a coffee shop in central Birmingham just to have a chat and a drink later this week. After coming out of my baby sensory class, I checked my phone and saw that someone in the group had found 50% off tickets to the Sea Life Centre. Everyone else agreed and booked tickets to meet there instead. The problem is that I have welfare concerns with the penguin enclosure there. Penguins have such a huge range in the wild, but at Birmingham they’re stuck in a small enclosure with no natural light and it honestly upsets me.

So I said that I didn’t want to go to the aquarium because I didn’t like the way the penguins were kept there. If it were a new meet-up suggested I’d have just said I was busy, but I was the one who suggested the date for this so I couldn’t think of a white lie to get out of it after the venue change. There were a few replies saying that it must be fine or it wouldn’t be legal, and someone said they went last year and the penguins looked happy. The group went quiet after that and it feels awkward. I wasn’t trying to judge, but I couldn’t think of a reason why I wouldn’t be able to go other than I had a problem with it so just went with honesty and I’m not sure if I was unreasonable for saying it in the first place and how to smooth it over now.

So much of animal behaviour is instinctual. These penguins will be born and grow up wanting to build nests from rocks, swim far and deep to hunt fish in the sea, find a mate, live in huge colonies etc. They can’t miss having done it, but when they don’t have the opportunity to do things which they evolved to do it’s stressful. Nature is cruel but it’s where they’re meant to be. Out of curiosity do you think that orcas and dolphins which have been bred in captivity in tiny tanks performing shows are just fine because they don’t know any different?

Do zoos really remove animals from freedom these days? I'm not sure that they do any more.

I'm on the fence because in an ideal world we wouldn't need zoos, but if humans keep destroying animals' habitats or keep poaching them for fur, ivory and "medicinal" purposes what is the answer? Do we let these breeds die out? Are safari parks a better option?

The Amur leopards and tigers at YWP are critically endangered. There are estimated to be about 70 leopards and less than 500 tigers left in the wild.

Surely you know you’re not being unreasonable? You stood by a moral and ethical belief you hold. That is absolutely fine to do so. If the others feel uncomfortable, that’s their issue. You didn’t tell them they couldn’t go. Adults make different choices in life.

"it must be fine or it wouldn’t be legal" is such ridiculous nonsense. I agree with you totally @pppppppickupapenguin

Its a bit like saying people must enjoy being poor cos otherwise why do they stay poor. - perhaps a bad analogy but I hope it makes sense to others not just me!

I don’t think you need to come up with excuses.

Simply saying “I’m sorry I won’t be able to come to that, I’m not comfortable with animals being kept in captivity for entertainment purposes. If you decide to meet else where please let me know and I’ll be there.”

I still don’t think I’m unreasonable, but I think I could have handled it differently. I hate flakiness so I’m not one for dropping out with vague excuses, so went with honestly instead. It would have been better to be breezier and vaguer and say that the aquarium isn’t for me, but I’m someone who always feels the need to justify myself. I’d have gone with that if I’d have posted before and asked for advice. Anyway, I posted again in the group chat this morning about something unrelated and so have a few others, so even if there’s a splinter group for the aquarium trip, hopefully it’s not permanent. I’ve got on well with them and while having children at the same time doesn’t give us anything in common, it is useful for advice and solidarity. And while I hope that they do reflect on what I said when they see the penguins and see that the enclosure is so sad, but if not then that’s fine. I won’t raise it again (and I’m sure I won’t be asked either!)

The fact that humans destroy habitats for animals is awful, but it doesn’t make it right to breed captive animals to raise them in captivity their whole lives who aren’t suited to captivity. I don’t think western zoos take animals from the wild that’s much any more, but it wouldn’t surprise me if countries with low reef are standards did.

If there’s a way to breed animals to rehabilitate and release in the wild that’s one thing, but most animals are bred to spend their whole lives in small enclosures. Like I said earlier, it doesn’t matter to a tiger who is kept in an enclosure which is smaller than the distance they’d cross in half an hour in the wild, bored, showing stereotypic behaviours because no amount of enrichment can give them what the wild they evolved to live in can give them, that other tigers are living the life they should be. I think that humans need to do better for both wild and captive animals, and sadly we don’t seem to be doing either.

Well I guess Seaworld technically meets the basic requirements of its occupants as in they are fed (can’t see how it provides any more than that to be honest) but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s fucking barbaric. And those original orcas WERE taken from the wild as babies. Absolutely disgusting that people still pay to watch the shows or visit the parks.

It's really hard. As a mum there is so little available to entertain kids so if they'd all got excited about it I imagine they wouldn't enjoy having that guilt on their shoulders.

However you can still meet them after to catch up surely?

I don't go to zoos , farms or aquariums with my children only sanctuaries because we are against it, people don't realise that alot of captive conditions are extremely inhumane,well done for sticking to your principles.

I feel quite sorry for the others. Theyre all new mums and that a heck of a life change and they're probably all sleep deprived and recovering. Hormones all over the place.

They were probably thinking it would be a nice thing to do. The tanks and fish may be mesmerising for the little ones and not completely mind numbing for adults either. They

Now you've got OP who's poured cold water on this outing and made them feel bad. They're not bad people they're just looking for something to suit all of them.

No matter it'll be the last OP probably gets included.

I didn’t make anyone feel bad or judge, just that I’d been before and didn’t like the penguin exhibit, it was about me not them. You feel sorry for my friends because I don’t want to go to an aquarium and was a too honest about why because they’re vulnerable new mum, with sleep deprivation and hormones everywhere, but guess why I was on the NCT course with them. You seem to think it’s a good thing that I might be cut off from a support group totally because I don’t agree with gentoo penguins being captive in central Birmingham. But the group chat seems to have recovered and we’ve planned a picnic together at the weekend.

I sort of agree but having any hope of some species being back in the wild may depend on maintaining several generations in captivity especially among the short lived species. The well run places know about this and are clear that its not enough to maintain an animal that LOOKS like the endangered animal but also keeps its behaviours alive so that it will flourish in the wild. I remember seeing a program about Tamarins and the work done to maintain a wide gene pool and also to keep their natural behaviours intact. This means doing things we may think of as unkind such as allowing a level of violence and keeping life harder for them than it could be. Its also a hard fact that much of the funding for this comes from the public, either from visits and merch or from donations. Either way the public have to feel rewarded for their money. This is a general comment, not about the indoor kept penguins. Honestly I don't know enough about that to comment but if you don't like it then don't support it.

I'm with you OP.
I can't bare using animals for entertainment.
I was completely put off about fifteen years ago,seeing wolves pace up and down at a wildlife park in the cotswolds, even though they had quite a bit of space.
Even riding expand bathing elephants in other countries makes me so sad.

My understanding from your original question was not about animal welfare but about expressing a perhaps unpopular opinion that might be taken as a criticism and therefore you being left out of future arrangements? In my group of friends/acquaintances there are a couple whose views on some issues I’m totally against but that doesnt automatically mean we disagree about everything and can’t be friends. So if this group can’t cope with a difference of opinion on a matter that hardly affects day to day life, then that’s on them.
Going forward I’d just carry on as usual. I wouldn’t refer to it at all. If they stop inviting you to meet ups well really no loss to you if they are that shallow. Suggest another meet up yourself if you normally would see what the response is.

My understanding from your original question was not about animal welfare but about expressing a perhaps unpopular opinion that might be taken as a criticism and therefore you being left out of future arrangements? In my group of friends/acquaintances there are a couple whose views on some issues I’m totally against but that doesnt automatically mean we disagree about everything and can’t be friends. So if this group can’t cope with a difference of opinion on a matter that hardly affects day to day life, then that’s on them.
Going forward I’d just carry on as usual. I wouldn’t refer to it at all. If they stop inviting you to meet ups well really no loss to you if they are that shallow. Suggest another meet up yourself if you normally would see what the response is.

Bit dramatic there 🤣