was I unreasonable to refuse to go an aquarium on welfare grounds

[pppppppickupapenguin]

I’d organised a meet up with my NCT group at a coffee shop in central Birmingham just to have a chat and a drink later this week. After coming out of my baby sensory class, I checked my phone and saw that someone in the group had found 50% off tickets to the Sea Life Centre. Everyone else agreed and booked tickets to meet there instead. The problem is that I have welfare concerns with the penguin enclosure there. Penguins have such a huge range in the wild, but at Birmingham they’re stuck in a small enclosure with no natural light and it honestly upsets me.

So I said that I didn’t want to go to the aquarium because I didn’t like the way the penguins were kept there. If it were a new meet-up suggested I’d have just said I was busy, but I was the one who suggested the date for this so I couldn’t think of a white lie to get out of it after the venue change. There were a few replies saying that it must be fine or it wouldn’t be legal, and someone said they went last year and the penguins looked happy. The group went quiet after that and it feels awkward. I wasn’t trying to judge, but I couldn’t think of a reason why I wouldn’t be able to go other than I had a problem with it so just went with honesty and I’m not sure if I was unreasonable for saying it in the first place and how to smooth it over now.

Why shouldn't OP say what she means, what she feels strongly about?

Good for you op.

YANBU. You have morals and you don’t compromise on them. You don’t need to smooth it over. They’re ridiculous!

I dont see why they needed to know? So you say it is on ethical grounds, and? We're you expecting a certain reply? They to change the event?

Same if i invite a vegan to a restaurant i need to know if they are coming or not i dont need to know thry refuse to go because they put honey on carrots

It just seems attention seeking to me

I think you were right not to go and right to explain why you weren't going.

I don't really understand the replies saying you should have made up an excuse. The parents who didn't see anything wrong with the way penguins are kept would just think you were overreacting. If some parents felt uncomfortable then that would because you made them think about something which they hadn't considered and their consciences were pricking them.

When my dd was young, I took her and a friend out for the day. They wanted to go to the Sealife Centre and as it was a small one, I thought there would just be fish and it would be ok. I was surprised by how uncomfortable I was at the small size of the tanks. The worst were a couple of large rays which belonged in the sea and were in an enclosure that took them a couple of minutes to swim around.

I wished that we hadn't gone and I haven't been back. That Sealife Centre was depressing enough. I'm sure that one with penguins would be far worse.

We went to the London Aquarium last year. I wish someone had told me that they kept penguins in the basement. I never would have gone if I'd known. I think you were doing them a service pointing it out.

The worst that I ever saw was in Russia in the '80s. Leningrad Zoo was hellish: single animals kept in small cages. I recall that they had a cross between a donkey and a zebra in a bare cage on its own. (I was an exchange student.)

Then we made the mistake of going to see the Moscow State Circus on Tour. The horses were so thin that their ribs were showing.

Just when we thought it couldn't get any worse, they brought out a bear in a dress. We were in tears when we left. Animal welfare was obviously an alien concept.

Why should she? She’s quite right. Zoos shouldn’t exist.

I got absolute living hell from a couple of my animal loving friends. Because I went to a wildlife park when I went to Canada.

If they'd asked me before they flew off the handle, they would have known that all of these creatures had been rescued as injured from the wild and were no longer capable of independent living in the wild. The eagles were unable to fly for.example.

Rather than putting healthy creatures down that were injured, they are flourishing in a wildlife park with massive enclosures and are well cared for. The money from ticket sales goes to help there. Welfare and to rescue other injured creatures that would otherwise die in the wild.

I'm not saying sea life is like that. It probably isn't, but do do your research before being an arsehole to somebody for no reason.

I don't think you were unreasonable at all. I find aquariums and zoos to generally be sad and depressing prisons for animals and can't cope with looking at them.

No judgement from me towards those that don't share my views though- I eat meat and exploit animals daily dye to this practice. But I can't cope with the sadness captured animals make me feel when it's supposed to be fun!

But I would find it odd if I was encouraged to hide the reason why I didn't want to visit one. Especially if I was the trip organiser like you were OP, why should you have to hide the reason you don't fancy visiting the aquarium? Sounds as if it did make people feel uncomfortable, but I think they need to toughen up and own and face up to their choice to visit somewhere that imprisons penguins and other creatures in enclosures that are definitely too small, and are therefore quite inhumane. Additionally, you may have made some people think about the issue. Sorry if you do lose the groups friendship, that would really disappoint me. People are odd. But that's what we do- keep penguins in cages and feel too fragile if someone says it's cruel...

Good for you OP. You did the right thing being honest.

This!

Well done OP, the more that down out and refuse to visit, the more that will join you.

Yeah, I agree. A better reason would have been something vague like “I’m not really an aquarium person.”

Not at all, and I admire your ethics. I feel similar about animal enclosures but still go. They probably just felt a bit embarrassed themselves and if they judged you for having ethics (which I doubt) then I wouldn't want to be friends with them. I don't think they will actually care and there's anything to smooth over. Did they end up going? Sorry if I missed that bit.

I think you were totally right, and right to say what your concern is. I'm shocked there are penguins being held in such poor conditions.

Shocked but not surprised.

It's black and white statements like this that make me loose respect for people.

In a perfect world, yes, zoos should not exist.

In the world that we have, zoos are an important conservation and education tool. Species like Preswalski's horse, which is now thriving in the wild, would be extinct if it weren't for zoos.

Many species thrive in zoos, with appropriate enrichment. While life in the wild is the ideal, it also has to be acknowledged that life in the wild is often brutal and short, especially for animals that have had injuries.

Same - I was horrified. Completely unnecessary too, the beautiful fish are plenty to look at.

Perhaps it's the best thing for the penguins, though? The best way to keep them cold enough? I haven't been there, so I don't know.

I'm just wary of using human values to judge animal wellbeing. For instance, there was that sunfish that got depressed during covid because it wasn't getting visitors, and the zookeepers had to make cardboard people for it. It seems really counter intuitive that a fish would do that.

It seems to me that it's really hard to say what a penguin needs to thrive unless you know a boatload about penguins. Enough room is a very logical starting point, but can you compensate a lot for them having a lot less space than they would in the wild? You can with some species.

Oh come on! 🙄

Why? Humans are hardly in their natural habitat either and we seem to prefer that than having to hunt for food, be wary of predators 24/7 and with no access to medical treatment. I don't understand the problem with zoos that have good animal welfare.

Some are there for conservation reasons so that's true in one aspect, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that it's better for an animal to be held in captivity than in the wild in its natural habitat. Let's see how you like being put in a zoo, huh? 😜

I've only seen penguins in captivity once, abroad, and they were in the basement. It was in a warm climate. Had they been exposed to those temperatures, they would have been miserable. They had these huge lights, so it looked like daylight - and it meant they could also simulate long Antarctic winter nights and summer days.

They had lots of information about how they were meeting the penguins' needs, and why they were doing things they way they were.

I guess it depends, I'm assuming they are meeting their needs as best they can, being in captivity to make money? I don't know the individual situation here or the details, I'm just saying let's not kid ourselves these things are the best thing for the animals that's all

Humans are bound by all sorts of rules of society too tho. It's not like humans can take off wherever they want or live anywhere they like. In that respect wild animals have it even better than us. BUT if I was an animal and had predators and had to hunt for food in the wild, I think I'd much rather just be in a zoo? Surely wild animals suffer way more than zoo animals? As a PP said, the wild is a really cruel and barbaric place.

Thanks for saving me a response to the nonsense…clearly the conservation efforts of many zoos and aquariums do so much for the planet, and provide an educational experience to encourage the future conservationists of tomorrow who see these species when they are children.

But yeah…let’s get rid of all zoos 🤣

Greyhound racing is vile. We have a rescue greyhound, who has to be kept away from cats and small animals forever because most greyhound racers teach them with live baiting, even though it's generally illegal, so the dogs cannot - mostly - be re trained not to try to slaughter cats etc. And they are eerily fast. Its not the greyhounds fault, at all, but it limits who is willing or able to have them.

There is always an over supply of greyhounds, as they mainly bred specifically to be raced, if they are not fast enough they are dumped and slaughtered and if they are injured or just get too old (and there are a lot of injuries in greyhound racing) they are also dumped and slaughtered. Greyhound rescuers fight a constant uphill battle to save them.

They call dumped and slaughtered greyhounds wasteage.

I don't think you can compare penguins in a zoo to that, but everyone has a right to draw their own lines of course.

There is simply no way I would ever set foot anywhere near a greyhound track, knowing what I now know, and I would just say no thanks if I was you. I tend to believe that they either they know and don't care about the dogs or they are choosing not to know, but if you want to educate and can deal with the pushback and entitlement you might receive, you could start here.

www dot bluecross dot org dot uk/why-its-time-to-end-greyhound-racing#:~:text=Dog%20welfare%20is%20at%20the,phasing%20o