was I unreasonable to refuse to go an aquarium on welfare grounds

[pppppppickupapenguin]

I’d organised a meet up with my NCT group at a coffee shop in central Birmingham just to have a chat and a drink later this week. After coming out of my baby sensory class, I checked my phone and saw that someone in the group had found 50% off tickets to the Sea Life Centre. Everyone else agreed and booked tickets to meet there instead. The problem is that I have welfare concerns with the penguin enclosure there. Penguins have such a huge range in the wild, but at Birmingham they’re stuck in a small enclosure with no natural light and it honestly upsets me.

So I said that I didn’t want to go to the aquarium because I didn’t like the way the penguins were kept there. If it were a new meet-up suggested I’d have just said I was busy, but I was the one who suggested the date for this so I couldn’t think of a white lie to get out of it after the venue change. There were a few replies saying that it must be fine or it wouldn’t be legal, and someone said they went last year and the penguins looked happy. The group went quiet after that and it feels awkward. I wasn’t trying to judge, but I couldn’t think of a reason why I wouldn’t be able to go other than I had a problem with it so just went with honesty and I’m not sure if I was unreasonable for saying it in the first place and how to smooth it over now.

Fine to say it, but regardless of anyone's ethical views there was a clear risk of this happening. It's best to think through all the implications first, check it's definitely what you want.

In such situations, one does sometimes have to choose between keeping in with a group and telling a little white lie about something having come up suddenly so you can't make it. This is an issue where people often mix up should and is.

Would you still like to keep in with the group?

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable. Ironically, I took my 3 month old to sea life Birmingham last week as I was told it was great for sensory. She loved it, but I was shocked and uncomfortable at the penguin enclosure - naivety on my part I think to not consider this beforehand.
Torn because she absolutely loved seeing all the fish and it was lovely to watch her as a new parent but I wouldn’t want to fund this or teach my children that I think this is morally acceptable.

Yeah I agree, that's what I'm saying, maybe I didn't express very well. OP wasn't criticising them as people but criticising their choice, which is healthy.

Was about to say something along the same lines.

OP, I told myself I’d never take DC to the aquarium or zoo but I’m eating my words now as she’s been to the aquarium and my own NCT group are organising a birthday trip to the zoo. I told myself DC will enjoy it and she loves seeing her friends.

NCT friendships are really strange and artificial. They aren’t really based upon mutual interests or like mindedness. I have mostly maintained relationships with some mums met in such circumstances purely because DC enjoys spending time with their DC - but I do struggle with the differing views since when our DC are babies and toddlers, I have to be present and it’s really us mums talking. I have to bite my tongue so much when I hear absolute crap being spouted frankly. I sometimes politely call it out as BS and, like you, know I’ve ruffled some feathers but admittedly I wish I had your courage to take a firmer stance. Well done. 🐧🐧🐧

Yeah, I’ve heard this about penguins in captivity and when I asked in what way it just sounded like repetitive behaviour because of their environment tbh.

You've done the right thing! Their responses are laughable. Lots of things are "legal" that hurt animals, so that's no measuring stick... and saying a penguin "looks happy"... unless you're an expert in penguin body language how would you know? Hopefully you've made them reflect a bit.

It sounds like animal welfare is important to you and you feel like your actions aren't aligned with your values, so why not change that? There's lots of alternatives and resources available if you'd like to make a change.

It’s okay for you to have morals and say no to something and people should be okay with that. I’d have lied and said I was suddenly magically busy but I actually think you should be okay to tell the truth, it wasn’t like you were stopping anyone else from going or offending anyone.
They also changed the plans last minute to something you weren’t keen on without checking first which is annoying.
They are being unreasonable, it’s okay for everyone to feel differently. My best friend won’t go to the zoo with me as she doesn’t agree with them and that’s absolutely no problem.

This. You've very much put yourself in the 'I'm so much more aware and empathetic than you' corner. That's fine for you and , judging by this thread,there are lots of you out there emoting about everything all the time. Must be exhausting. I dare say they have set up a side group now and you won't hear much from them again .

Why? She’s allowed to be honest about her reasons for not wanting to go. If the others don’t feel the same way it’s fine for them to say so too.

I also don’t know how a penguin looks happy and I won’t ask either. I do remember reading an article years ago about how a dolphin’s smile is almost cruel because when they are in tiny tanks and forced to perform in shows they have a smile on their faces so people naturally think they’re happy. Thank god we don’t have any captive in the UK anymore. Maybe it’s the same for penguins how they look silly waddling around so people interpret that as happiness.

No. They are penguins.

I'd have done the same. If they feel judged they should, they clearly don't care about animal welfare. I would never make an excuse either, I'd stick up for animals. Time those places were shut.

I’m not sure why you’re calling having an opinion on something “emoting about everything all the time”. I think the penguin exhibit at the aquarium is cruel and so I don’t want to go. If it were to see an elephant in a circus or dancing bears or a dogfight then you probably wouldn’t want to go either, without feeling like you’re emoting excessively. Differently people have that lime in a different place, and mine is here. Unless you think anyone who has any ethical concerns about anything is an exhausting whinger.

OP I don’t think you did anything wrong.

I agree that it was bad form for them to change the venue anyway, especially before you had even replied.

Also agree, that if they are more than just brand-new acquaintances, of course you should be able to share views.

I have some friends who are, let’s say, VERY vocal vegans. I’m not even vegetarian. We don’t fall out and go our separate ways over it,

If there is a falling out over this, or if you’re frozen out of the group, they just don’t sound as if they’re very genuine friends, and are very petty and immature.

Sigh. But she clearly is ‘more aware and empathic’ than the rest of this group if it’s genuinely never occurred to them thst there are issues with Sea Life. She’s not obliged to pussyfoot around the issues to make her dopey friends feel good about themselves. It has nothing to do with ‘emoting’. It’s a basic ethics.

My dad was also one of these people who would shun aquaria

“It must be fine, or it wouldn’t be legal”

”I went before, and the penguins looked happy”

These comments are quite ignorant, in my opinion, and it would leave me questioning whether I want to spend time with these people.

That said, I don’t know what an NCT Group is anyway, so I’m not sure how deeply invested in it all you are.

But I wouldn’t go on principle, if I were you. Whether I continued to see these people afterward would be another matter. I might find another NCT Group, or abandon NCT altogether (depending on what it is)

I live near the YWP and they get so much stick for being "a zoo" but all there animals are born in captivity and a lot have been rescued from truly awful conditions. In an ideal world there would be no need for zoos but unfortunately these animals cannot go back into the wild.
There enclosures are nice and big too.
I do agree the sea life centres do seem cruel.

If you have to lie to your friends in order to keep them, they aren't your friends. This is why honesty is always the best policy.

yanbu. You were just explaining your self. And if they think you are being judgey, well, I’d rather be thought of sanctimonious than flakey! Next time they might think ‘let’s go to x instead as then penguin will join us’ , rather than ‘let’s not bother inviting penguin as she’ll not come anyway’ .

I have a lot of respect for YWP and their lions (although the current cub situation is far from ideal... hopefully lessons have been learnt!)

However some of the smaller animals gave very smaller enclosures. Like the meerkats.

Its likely my DD will be studying there in a couple of years and it was that zoo that completely created her passion.

I took my kids to a Sealife Centre when they were little. Never again. It became known in our house as fish prison. Sharks in little tanks when they should have the freedom of the sea? Animals in captivity for the amusement of humans is always wrong. I think you were perfectly right to be honest with them. Id be interested to hear what they thought of it , whether any of them come away agreeing with you

Aquarium aside, I think it’s a bit rude to hijack your meet up! A coffee is going to be cheaper than a half price aquarium ticket for a start.

the Lego experience used to be next door to the aquarium. Maybe re-take the meet up by suggesting a meet up there?

I feel the same about the London aquarium, I don’t understand how they can keep penguins indoors.