was I unreasonable to refuse to go an aquarium on welfare grounds

[pppppppickupapenguin]

I’d organised a meet up with my NCT group at a coffee shop in central Birmingham just to have a chat and a drink later this week. After coming out of my baby sensory class, I checked my phone and saw that someone in the group had found 50% off tickets to the Sea Life Centre. Everyone else agreed and booked tickets to meet there instead. The problem is that I have welfare concerns with the penguin enclosure there. Penguins have such a huge range in the wild, but at Birmingham they’re stuck in a small enclosure with no natural light and it honestly upsets me.

So I said that I didn’t want to go to the aquarium because I didn’t like the way the penguins were kept there. If it were a new meet-up suggested I’d have just said I was busy, but I was the one who suggested the date for this so I couldn’t think of a white lie to get out of it after the venue change. There were a few replies saying that it must be fine or it wouldn’t be legal, and someone said they went last year and the penguins looked happy. The group went quiet after that and it feels awkward. I wasn’t trying to judge, but I couldn’t think of a reason why I wouldn’t be able to go other than I had a problem with it so just went with honesty and I’m not sure if I was unreasonable for saying it in the first place and how to smooth it over now.

And if you'll notes, this poster wasn't content with telling this new group of friends how she feels.She had to post about it online, too. She's got a bee in her bonnet about this and Id wager, she came across as pretty insufferable to these people.

We all know the type she's just had to come online as well to air her views seek validation

It’s a tricky one. In my opinion, right from the get-go, you have to model standing up for the right values to your kids. As you say, tricky to come up with a different excuse once they knew you were free, and unfortunate it comes across as judgy (can’t see how you could avoid that tbh). Think of it this way: your friends from now will be made/fizzle based on (1) sgared values; and (2) parenting style. This NCT group is not your tribe, so move on without regrets.

Whatever my views on keeping penguins in a basement are, its your views that matter and ysnbu for turning doen something you don't agree with and expressing that view. The downside is the potential consequences for you. Me, I'd take tge consequences.

One of the things I learned about baby groups was that just because you all had sex at roughly the same time of the year does not mean you have anything else in common at all.

It was years and years since I’d been to a zoo. Someone suggested we go to one as a family, so my daughters and I and all the grandchildren went. At first it was nice seeing the animals and the kids were enjoying it. But I started feeling sad and uncomfortable the longer we were there. The animals were clearly well cared for, but they were confined, exhibiting repetitive, frustrated behaviours for our entertainment or “education”. Education in what we as a species have done to the other creatures we share the earth with. Maybe the stick insects were happy.
I didn’t say anything negative and overall we had a good day - but as we were leaving one of the boys, aged about 11 at the time and not a particularly sensitive type, a typical football obsessed, bike fixing, usually muddy boy, said quietly but emphatically “None of those animals should be here”. I had to agree.
You’re not being judgemental.
They aren’t leading the lives they were born to live. I would never visit a zoo or aquarium again.

I’d be the same. I don’t go to zoos, city farms, aquariums etc. they’re horrific. They’re not your people, at least you’ve now found out.

I don't blame you. I have mixed feelings about my nearest zoo - some of the enclosures look pretty good for the species, and I know the keepers are doing their best with novel enrichment activities; others are absolutely shite with visibly depressed or stressed animals. They have an excellent conservation programme for several species, so I give them a pass for some things, and I am pretty sure it's lack of funds that are the reason why enclosures aren't better. There's no reason why an Aquarium would be better or worse than a land-based zoo for animal welfare, and you have had personal experience that leads you to form your own conclusion.

I think it's probably gone quiet because people will feel judged by your comment, even though it was a perfectly valid and not judgemental comment - that's human nature, and they'll be feeling a combination of guilt that it didn't occur to them to question the animal's welfare, defensiveness because people don't like to feel wrong, and a need to justify their actions because people have a need to feel that they are right. Maybe they have formed another group to discuss this if they feel the original group will have tension in it with you in there while they discuss the visit. I think the best you can do is to post again a cheery message to say that whilst it's your own personal choice you don't begrudge anybody else for going and hope they have a lovely time, and oh by the way how about the next meet up after this one being on the X of X month at (insert safe and popular place here)? That way you're clearly signalling to the group that it's "emotionally safe" (vomit on the choice of language I know but I don't know what else to call it) to continue to post in this group, and you're actively encouraging people to come back into this group not abandon it for future meet ups.

What utter nonsense. People make choices and just because somebody else makes a different one to you doesn't mean you can't get along

Their repetitive behaviour looks like they’re “playing” to some I think… But not sure either.

When do penguins need to be in these inside city aquariums anyway? They are much better suited to zoos if they must be kept in captivity.

I'm glad you stuck up for the penguins op. Blown my mind that people here think it would have been better to make up a lie just to save the groups feelings.

I went to London Sea Life in about 2012 and assumed the penguins had an outdoor enclosure that wasn't public. Absolutely devastated to realise they didn't have any access to natural daylight EVER. Absolutely awful.
I know someone campaigned about it years ago but I think the penguins are still stuck there. I'm going to go look for a petition or send a complaint email.

We have to stick up for the animals who don't have voices. If that hurts people's feelings then so be it.

I don’t understand why greyhound racing hasn’t been banned. I would take a really dim view of anyone who wanted to go.

I'm.a previous zoo education officer. I can tell you that the majority of zoos in the UK are part of BIAZA which sets standards for husbandry and care in addition to the Zoo licensing requirements. They have to follow very strict guidelines. Zoo keepers want nothing more than the animals in their care to flourish. Zoo's nowadays are more than tourist attractions, they do enormous amounts of conservation work abroad with money from admissions, they have significant breeding programs going on for endangered species. So many species would be extinct without zoo's. Some zoo's rescue animals that wouldn't survive in the wild.

Just a quick Google explains why they are in the basement.. they need to control the low light conditions to replicate the darkness of the south pole winter for the penguins and keep them happy.

Oh good grief. I'd hope that they'd stopped.

YANBU but sometimes it’s kinder/politer not to say it. You’re effectively judging them for their choices and implying that you’re morally superior. To me that’s not a good way to behave towards friends. I would just say aquariums aren’t really my thing so I’ll give it a miss and meet up with you another time.

Personally I think horse riding is ethically wrong but I would never say that to my friends who ride when they ask me why I don’t consider riding lessons for my child, I just say it’s not something that my child wants to do. I don’t impose my morals on them.

Of course YANBU. There's nothing wrong with simply stating the truth, that it's not something you would go to due to your own ethical beliefs. Might get others thinking, but that's not the purpose. Why should you have to make up a white lie? I usually say something like 'not for me, but hope you guys have fun' and if someone asks more I'll say why. If other people got uncomfortable and felt they had to defend why they were going that's on them.

Giving penguins access to the outdoors in the UK is cruel! The weather is way too hot, and the light is wrong.

Not all penguins come from the Antarctic, plenty come from hot climates including Africa and Australia!

I doubt the conditions replicate the penguin’s natural habitat in any other way though?!

I hope this is sarcasm but this is the stupidest thing I have ever read on the Internet. Christ.

What about the south pole summer where the sun never sets?? How is keeping penguins captive away from any natural light or air representative of their habitat?

I trust that the Aquarium meets all of its standards I just don’t think those standards are high enough. I think that unfortunately for zoos and aquaria the big star attraction animals are the ones which are least suited to a life in captivity. Conservation efforts by zoos doesn’t mitigate breeding or acquiring wild animals to in conditions so vastly inferior to what they’d experience in the wild. Does it matter to a tiger who is kept in an enclosure which is smaller than the distance they’d cross in half an hour in the wild, bored, showing stereotypic behaviours because no amount of enrichment can give them what the wild they evolved to live in, that other tigers are living the life they should be?

I’m also aware of why the penguins have no fresh air or natural light. Central Birmingham is incredibly dissimilar to South Georgia and the Sandwich Islands, in climate, sunlight patterns, air quality etc. But for me that means that Gentoo penguins shouldn’t live in Birmingham, not that the best that Sea Life Centre can come up with in a small pen indoors is remotely good enough.

That post from the 'zookeeper' is the usual speciesist claptrap about how actually animals are glad that humans have either removed them from freedom to imprison them, or bred them into captivity, so humans can gawk and the zoo can make money from them. They will never understand that no amount of 'perfect enclosure' nonsense will make up for taking an innocent living being and putting them in jail.

Animals born into captivity never know any different, you can't miss what you've never had. Arguably they have better living conditions being looked after if sick, fed, warm etc.

I don't love zoos but I can see they're not mistreating animals

Without people who are prepared to stick their neck out for what they believe in, we’d be absolutely stuffed.