To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

They deserve to have pay restoration. As an HCP I also deserve it. Good for them for actually having the grit to fight for it. Unlike the RCN who rolled over like a kitten for the nurses.

urgh, not again. I think there was little support for it in my hospital last time. By the last few, barely any doctors were striking. We didn’t even notice it.

Why. Why do they ‘deserve’ inflation linked pay restoration and not other professions? What gives them a right to inflation linked pay when others don’t have that right? Esp in a day when the OBR stated that continued unfunded spending will do serious damage to UK finances.

They are totally out of touch with the public on this.

Yes, they will probably not get much sympathy from the public. However, the reality is that junior doctors who have studied and worked hard for years are watching their peers in other industries earn much higher salaries and can see that they could earn double the pay in other countries. We need to pay them more to keep them in the NHS (and there needs to be a massive improvement in training and working conditions).

I thought there was a lengthy thread about how international doctors were taking all of the jobs here. Is there a shortage of doctors applying for the UK or not.

And there are virtually no public sector jobs as well paid as being an NHS doctor. You cannot really compare public sector salaries and private sector salaries. In the private sector - esp in professional services (legal / accountancy / management consulting) - pensions are pitiful and redundancy cycles happen all of the time. You can’t just compare salaries. That’s like comparing apples and pears. And what’s to say these medics have the suitable skills to excel in professional services? They step totally different careers.

There's been lots of threads & complaints about the uni grads not being able to get jobs due to competition from overseas so there's clearly no shortage of doctors willing to work in the terms & conditions offered

I think it's arrogance as they think the world owes them something and that they are somehow better than everyone else. No one is owed high pay because of what they did at uni - you earn pay for the work you do.

The medical students I was at uni with were overwhelmingly arrogant & entitled. It must come as a shock when they go into the real world & discover they aren't as awesome as they thought.

Junior doctors are becoming a fucking disgrace! I really hope the public find a way to ensure we do not support this. With covid, Ukraine, the Middle East and Donald Trump's threat of increased tariffs, coupled with the government's increases in taxes and our stagnating economy this country is in a very difficult position. Unemployment is rising and that will accelerate, salaries are being frozen or cut in some places. For doctors who are guaranteed, within a few years of working, to be earning in tne top 10% of earnings in this country, it is so greedy, entitled and short sighted. The last strikes made me angry, this is a million times worse. I really hope the public and the government kick this into touch ASAP.

Doctors deserve better pay and MUCH better conditions. We need people to be doctors and anyone smart enough to pass medical school is also smart enough to become a banker or a lawyer and earn much more money. We don’t want grads to do that, so need to up both pay and conditions.

other HCPs deserve the same and I hope they get it too.

Most doctors, unless they work part time or choose not to step up the grades (or aren't good enough!) will earn in the top 10% if UK salaries relatively quickly and the top 5% by the time they reach the highest grade.

We don't need to pay doctors more to keep them in the NHS. That's union bollox that you've been fed. The unions have a lot to answer for when it comes to T&C negotiations. They make all this bullshit up to gain sympathy from the public and support from the doctors. You are literally parroting the comedy they want you to parrot. Have a closer look at what they're saying...

Most doctors, unless they work part time or choose not to step up the grades (or aren't good enough!) will earn in the top 10% if UK salaries relatively quickly and the top 5% by the time they reach the highest grade.

We don't need to pay doctors more to keep them in the NHS. That's union bollox that you've been fed. The unions have a lot to answer for when it comes to T&C negotiations. They make all this bullshit up to gain sympathy from the public and support from the doctors. You are literally parroting the comedy they want you to parrot. Have a closer look at what they're saying...

Yes, they have.
22% and now a further 29%. I can't see the public getting behind this at all.
No one in the nhs gets paid enough for the complete slog that it is. Perhaps the answer lies in improving working conditions and reducing the workload, rather than giving 29% pay rises to a specific staff group.

@HoskinsChoice The issue is that over the last 10 years medical school places have increased (which is good) but rather than thinking long-term, they didn't. So after you do your F1 and F2 years then you're applying for speciality training and by not expanding the training posts many people (who are qualified and have passed the exams and have good portfolios) don't get onto the training programs. They often have to either reapply the following years or stay stagnant not in training - it's not normally a choice, except for those who maybe want more time to consider it - but they aren't applying for speciality training then. Also the conditions, lack of pay restoration etc has meant that many leave to train abroad (so we have a brain drain) to countries like Australia, Canada, rest of Europe etc. They get better training (as in set programmes, better pay and other benefits) and lots of them aren't coming back and I don't blame them. If we want the doctors to stay we need to pay them more (restoration and invest in properly reforming the NHS which I think they're trying to do, but only time will tell.

Also I don't think they expect 27% or whatever it is they've asked - but even a payment plan for the next 5-10 years to get restoration could work. Also they have asked for other things not just pay; better training programs which they don't have to pay for. Doctors even after they leave uni, during training have to pay for the training which they must do, and for their exams (often a minimum of a thousand and upwards). They've asked for more training posts as well, better working conditions (not having to do lots of 12 hour shifts on top of 8 to 5 shifts. So I think if the government give a lot in these points with a reasonable pay settlement, it could be resolved quickly. To your point about other professions (teachers, social work, nurses) I also think they deserve pay restoration.

Why should we though? There are lots of international doctors willing to do the job for the pay offered. Why should we be interested in keeping UK doctors who whine endlessly and are itching to go on strike?

And please explain why doctors deserve pay restoration rather than other professions? We sure as heck cannot afford it!!!

You’ll get the doctors you deserve if you won’t pay for them. The pay and conditions for residents have always demanded a lot for
little with the NHS coasting on “goodwill” but with the consecutive governments and Lib Dem/Conservatives removing the fee ceiling and over riding the DDRB recommendations the arithmetic has changed and they’re graduating with massive debt and a hugely stressful job with costs which other professions don’t have (rotating job/home, sky high exams fees, professional body memberships) and antisocial hours for a real
pay drop of almost 30%!
Doctors have suffered significantly larger pay cuts relative to other public servants like teachers and nurses. I had a conversation with one who was explicit about his parlous finances and his ethics explaining how he felt so conflicted about leaving the UK but he couldn’t see how he had a future until his uni debts had been repaid and Australia would enable him to do that. He is part of a huge brain drain.

@Flitwickflight I said that I do think other professionals deserve pay restoration. I don't think doctors are more deserving than the other professions I mentioned at the end (teacher, social workers, the majority of public sector workers do). I also said that no we can't unfortunately in one go (due to the country’s fiscal state) just give them pay restoration in one go but we can improve working conditions, increase training posts, and shift patterns, and the quality of training programs. That could even involve no extra money just restructuring. I think, as I mentioned, a longer term strategy is needed. The doctors don't know (and other public sectors workers like teachers) year on year - depending on the government if the independent pay body's recommendation will be accepted. For the last decade they often haven't. That brings instability about pay, if Streeting can improve the other aspects and have a long 5-10 year plan for pay restoration, I think they will accept that.

Also there aren't that many international doctors so if we don't change anything, soon (happening already a little in certain areas) more doctors who trained here will be leaving than international doctors coming in. And even with the amount of international doctors we still have a doctors shortage (partly because they have to wait a couple years about their F2 year to get into training - even when qualified, passing all exams etc. As a result some can do a another year where they just rotate etc but aren't on a training pathway - but not enough so called 'F3' jobs exist. So many are unemployed for a few years - everyone knows how bad the waiting lists are. At the very least we can agree to massively increased training posts, it would benefit doctors and patients.

Lastly, we partly pay for people to go to medical school (and other university courses, but many pay a massive chunk back). So unless you want to as a taxpayer somewhat (whilst those medical students study) subside that cost and then not get any benefit by letting all those doctors leave - we have to reform the system and make real steps to pay restoration.

My husband and many of my friends are doctors …..

People thinking the grass is greener and leaving the country happens in every sector. It's not unique to doctors. Equally we have many international staff who come here because they want to work for the NHS. It all balances out. It's ridiculous to claim we should increase salaries just to stop a handful leaving the NHS.

In every walk of life, you start your career and the best rise to the top, some stay at the bottom, the rest do something in between. Again, that's life, not specific to the NHS.

Salaries sometimes go up. Salaries sometimes don't. Salaries sometimes are cut. Salaries sometimes are removed (redundancy). Again, not specific to the NHS.

This is my point. Staff in the NHS give the impression that they are hard done to when compared to other sectors. They're not. It's just life.

There's a reason that these striking doctors go into medicine - the money! The money is considerably better than the vast majority can even dream of earning. Those that don't go into it for money will be those that don't strike because striking literally puts lives at risk. You cannot strike for more money, particularly after such a big recent rise, if you genuinely put patients first.

They've had a massive pay rise already and have high earning potential. There are other public sector workers far more deserving of pay increases.

Perhaps what many of you do not realise as you do not work in the NHS- yes, you can replace with doctors from other countries. Same as nurses, same as other AHP’s.
BUT, and this is a huge, massive BUT. They are not the same calibre bar some from certain countries.
firstly- the education is different, no getting around that, secondly- the huge language issue between professionals. Thirdly- it is a short term fix which has meant a flood of international health professionals who are not at the same level as home grown, which has now meant that there is no jobs for better trained staff.
Yes- they end up on decent pay, if they get that far. Yes they end up with an amazing pension- if they get that far. The reality is that we have too many international doctors and nurses who do not have the same communication skills, work ethic, experience etc.
If you do not support the NHS by supporting pay for all its members then perhaps you may rethink your naivety in the short future when the doctors are earning millions when it is all private, as opposed to 100k here.Compare the UK salaries to the US. Wonder why the less qualified international medics come to the UK rather than the US. It’s not rocket science. You get what you pay for. We pay peanuts.
I do work for the NHS, will be 20 years very shortly, my pay should be over 15k more if it hadn’t been stripped back year on year. Managing over 100 staff and working clinically- my pay is pathetic compared to any private position. Plus, any thing that any of my staff do that causes a patient death or injury,it is me that ends up in the coroners court. Staff that I did not employ but were given with no choice. Staff that are not trained to the UK standard.
I know who I would like to look after my loved ones- perhaps some of you would prefer to have people who can’t communicate in English, who have a lot less empathy, who are actually just not as good medically or nursing wise.
but yeah- how dare they get paid what they deserve. Let them leave to other countries who pay them what they deserve, instead here- have some less qualified staff.
Rant over. So sick of the naivety over paying people who are literally keeping people alive their worth.

Oh I see! Everyone except you @Hotsausage2 is naive. How very silly of us. 🙄

So the female lead of the resident doctors at the BMA is 1. A New Zealander who is choosing to train in the NHS despite telling the public doctors are moving to NZ 2. Trained in Italy so a non UK graduate who is in a speciality training post BMA have been campaigning that UK trained doctors should get priority for.
no idea why she feels she has the right to trash the reputation of NHS doctors

The Times analysed doctors’ pay recently.

The BMA says that junior doctors’ pay has declined by 21 per cent in the last 17 years. That’s, to use a medical term, bollocks.

The BMA’s figure is got by using RPI rates not CPI rates. Nobody - apart from the BMA - uses RPI. And it depends where you start from. If you measure from 2015, junior doctors’ pay has risen above inflation. Even if you start from the BMA’s chosen 2008 but apply CPI, junior doctors’ pay has declined by 5%.

There are also a lot of non-basic pay components that boost doctors’ incomes and overall remuneration.

I fear that doctors are going the way of teachers: a once respected profession going down the reputational toilet because of self-interested militancy.

I’m a ‘junior doctor’ of 13yrs thanks to kids and a PhD. The BMA are totally tone deaf and will ruin themselves over this. Can’t come soon enough.

It’s a complex problem though.

1. pay has been eroded abysmally and my pay progression over the 5yrs from 2012-2017 was minimal despite going from FY1 to registrar level (ie the most senior person in my specialty out of hours) in that time. Pay rises were well overdue. The BMA allowed this to happen. This does need fixing.
2. the British public have no idea what healthcare is worth. If I left to go to the US tomorrow I’d work 20-40% longer hours but be paid 400% more. Instantly -at a ‘junior’ grade. A public sector pension and free health care for myself/family (which has been devalued enormously since I joined NHS aged 16 as a HCA) is not worth the pay difference.
3. the job has changed beyond belief. Again, the BMA and Jeremy -unt are largely to blame. The demands are more nowadays. But there are also way more doctors on rotas. The way hours were restructured means doctors can’t train on the job efficiently any more. They also don’t work more than their hours. Which was a given when i qualified. Working for free is wrong, but expecting to be a good doctor if you only work 9-5 with breaks etc is unrealistic.
4. the mistaken belief that medicine is a tick box exercise that anyone else can do. Some Nurses are paid more than the most senior registrars (working all hours) to follow tick box protocols 9-5. If they don’t know what to do the patients are diverted to doctors. Waste of money. Patients are not tick boxes. Experienced clinicians are invaluable. I fully support nurses being paid to provide excellent care in their area of practice, including advanced emergency practice or diabetes/COPD care etc (and generally for ward work etc). But the idea that tick box triage eg 2WW or 111, or lots of other stupid referral pathways is an absolute false economy and does rob junior drs of training work/experiences by seeing large volumes of pts in their specialty. I’ve had the misfortune of having CBT on nhs a few years ago. It was beyond abysmal. Someone reading a script over the phone? Why are we paying for this rubbish?
5. the ‘overseas’ dr issue? Most gmc referrals are for drs trained overseas. That said, UK-trained doctors should easily outshine them given their assumed English language proficiency and the fact they’ve trained ‘in the system’. They do not always outshine their IMG counterparts and, when this is the case, it’s due to lack of work ethic in the uk grads. You can’t have both reduced working hours and improved training/improved competence. Fact is ‘residents’ make fewer and fewer decisions, always deferring to those more senior. If they don’t start making decisions and working the hours then their pay should reflect that.

so, the brief upshot is - everyone is too entitled and it can’t work unless attitudes drastically change.

oh. And despite being able to be surgically remove your cancer or your kids burst appendix etc I’d be paid more as a train driver. So to the ‘pay decreases are bollocks’ crew - I’d be careful what you wish for. It’s coming…

I very much doubt that “it’s” coming. We are hardly short of wannabe doctors.

And if you want to travel safely or have somebody stop you being attacked or cut you out of a car wreck you might want to be less snooty about train drivers and others who safeguard and protect the public.

Fully trained paramedics do a much more difficult job than Resident Doctors for less money.