To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

I agree. Medical schools are limited to how many international students they can take on.

The problem is at the end of 7/8 years (F2) graduates from anywhere in the world are allowed to apply for entry level jobs in the NHS with no priority given to those who studied and trained here.

That is the problem. We are exporting bright hard working and educated young people, that the taxpayer has subsidised, in order to import possibly equally bright and hard working doctors from elsewhere. Some say this is a good thing. I don't. Not least it is a betrayal of the hard work, effort and investment our young people have made.

(Australia and New Zealand are only too happy to take them. So why aren't we.)

The reality of it is yet again the UK wants cheap labour in the form of doctors. They’re not prepared to pay to secure their children’s own future.
We had exactly the same problem with the Trades 20 years ago. Everybody wanted to employ Polish Bullders to bang up their extensions or a third of the price. Now everybody’s complaining that we can’t get the Polish Builders but we can’t get the young people trained either.
We want our cake and eat it. We’re going to end up with nothing.

For "we" I would substitute "the NHS".

Though some on MN regularly argue that medical training in Africa and South Asia is better and that recruitment should be on merit, most patients would disagree. When you are sick and vulnerable, your doctor having a familiar accent and a familiarity with local norms is useful especially if they have roots in the area and are likely to stay a long time.

The NHS wins twice. Worldwide recruitment means up to 2,000 applicants for an entry level job and the chance to recruit someone at the bottom of the pay scale with good skills and experience. Then competition for the zero hours NHS Bank and agency work is so high that they are able to call in good newly qualified UK trained doctors when they need them at far below a skilled worker rate.

In the meantime resident doctors seem only concerned with their own pay packets. Presumably they are busy discouraging their own children from going into medicine.

I'm guessing you are neither a doctor nor a teacher 🙄

Their student loans use RPI. The cost of their exams etc use RPI. See graph below by the radical left wing Times.

Do you have £100,000 of student debt, have to move jobs every 4-6 months for 10 years to wherever your employer fancies (no say in it), get paid 30% less than your assistants ? No ? Face unemployment every few years ? And only one employer (can’t work private until a consultant).

During the pandemic we bashed our pans and cut their pay. Let’s see how respected they are when you need one.

We had enough strikes. They had a good reset of their finances. Noe tgey should be getting on with their job. The rest of us are in the same boat. But we have to keep pushing and pulling together to get out of this hole. Or shall we all go on strike? And end the economy for good? Some of us will survive....
Yeap, it is far too much by now.

@MushMonsterare you paid 30% less than your assistant ? And is £19 an hour a decent wage for the person performing CPR on your child at 2am ?

With so many doctors (& nurses) facing unemployment next month the strike is a side show to the fiasco coming.

Medical staff are angry. This is why.

It will cost much less to give doctors what they ask (over the next 5 years, not in one go) than it will to let this 5 day strike happen 🤷‍♀️

BMA make a mockery of the medical establishment, new chair thinks people can change sex.

As much as I agree with you, it is a free country where you are allowed an opinion. And I don’t judge an entire profession by one person 🤷‍♀️

And

Yeah, but what proportion of those entering training this year will have student loans. Not the 50%+ IMGs. Not those who come from sufficiently well off backgrounds that they were able to BUY the time to put together a strong CV by taking a paid for Masters, attending conferences, paying to enter competitions etc that put them a step ahead of their peers.

The majority of those, possibly 90%, leaving F2 do not have training places. Some will have one year F3 contracts but most are saddled with huge loans and no jobs, either leaving the country, leaving the profession or coping with zero hours low paid NHS Bank jobs. How does increasing the pay of resident doctors help them?

Its bleak for everyone and difficult to agree how Dr Melissa Healy can argue for special treatment.

My understanding is that it is generally recognised that the BMA has been subject to significant entryism by special interest groups, whether gender enthusiasts, Militant Tendency types, or lobbys perhaps backed by overseas recruitment agencies. There have been some big issues, like GP unemployment, where a constructive BMA could have done a lot of good. But that ship has sailed and BMA credibility is shot. Given what else is happening in Government, this is a battle Wes needs to win.

'The Times suggested the other day that we (yes WE the taxpayer) should insist doctors pension contributions from the state are greatly reduced.'

THIS is the starting for any serious negotiation.

And exactly how Wes has responded. He wont talk about pay until doctors talk about pensions.

https://time.com/7299314/microsoft-ai-better-than-doctors-diagnosis/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00099-4

Want a less expensive, faster diagnosis and an improved bedside manner from something that doesn't get tired, irritable, arrogant, constantly demanding more money or is prejudiced against women? 😁

The BMA are pretty selective about their use of stats on salaries.

Lets also talk about the many areas in the private sector where pay has been stagnant since 2008. The doctors' platinum pension scheme has been protected and maintained throughout that period when DC schemes have shown flat performance or declined. Even workers in the few groups with pay growth (always cherry picked as the comparison points by the BMA) they have lost pension provision which offsets the pay growth.

Doctors have seen nearly a 30% rise over the past two years and automatic uprating of pensions along with it due to the DBS. Not even other health workers get close to that let alone the private sector.

The leadership of the BMA are frankly nuts at the moment (its not a coincidence that doctors are leaving the BMA and voting with their feet) with more interest in playing politics that negotiating a good long term deal for doctors where for instance early career T&C improvements could be traded for some relief from the cost of the pensions.

Agree about student loans, in England - thanks for pointing that out. The only information I can find about the costs of exams suggests a vague link with CPI. I would be grateful to learn more

Most importantly, that graph from the Times tracks changes in salary rather than salary itself. Consultants do not, to quote exactly, ‘get paid 30% less than your assistants’. From earlier discussion it appears that the graph also uses RPI rather than CPI

I agree that the Times is often relatively objective. Being unable to read the analysis and suspecting that it uses RPI, I am not sure about this example

My post above was for @mumsneedwine

I do not do a menial job either... you would be surprised, you may need other people in society too? We all have to adjust our expectations!
They had a raise. Now it is the time to work on the future, for the whole country. Not asking for more.

Here. C8 is much better at explaining it than I am, indeed!

@MushMonster you didn’t answer the question. Are you paid 30% less than you lower qualified assistant ?

How is this a 30% pay rise ? Maths not some people strong point

F1 salary 2023 £32,398 (£15.57 an hour)

F1 salary 2025. £36,616 (for a 40 hour week = £17.60 per hour)

Equates to an 11.5% pay rise. Or a whopping £2.17 an hour.

I mean, Wes knew the answer when he was in opposition 🤷‍♀️

Explain. Don’t talk crap about ‘one day they’ll all be rich consultants so can be poor now’ as this doesn’t pay the rent. And most won’t as not enough jobs. 52% of F2s currently have NO job come August. But you’ll be waiting hours in A&E or for your op.

She doesn’t need to. As I explained above, the graph tracks changes in salary, not salary. And it appears to do so according to RPI.

Very few in the NHS made more money than consultants and very few do so now. Just low up the pay bands.