To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

In case it needs stating, I am fine with IMGs. I do not see them as any sort of issue.

The only issue is whether British doctors are being forced out of training part way through. The answer seems ambiguous.

I think it's scraping the bottom of the argumentative barrel of resident doctors feel trying to appeal to reform voters by bringing immigration into this debate. Most people have excellent interactions with foreign doctors including staff.

Not having immigrant doctors would leave the NHS more open to the wild pay demands of middle class professionals whose earnings won't be seen by the vast majority of the country.

I am not against going back to the previous rules where U.K. trained Drs had priority as a matter of protecting taxpayers investment in them. I am not really sure why the government hasn’t done that as it would seem a quick win

What I object to is the way it has been painted that IMGs are responsible for medical unemployment when the actual statistics do not appear to me to support that. I think it is quite outrageous actually
if over half of FY2s did not even apply for a training scheme in recent years to then suggest that IMGs are the reason for not getting training posts when actually U.K. Drs hanging around for a few years in locum posts that cost the NHS a lot of money and then apparently getting spooked and applying en masse this year may well be the real reason.

On some previous threads on this matter some of the posts were at least xenophobic and, as I say, I felt moved to stick up for IMG Drs who the NHS has always relied on to fill the jobs no one else wants and who, by and large, do a great job. These are my loyal hardworking colleagues of many years we are talking about.

On a previous thread it was said that IMGs getting referred to the GMC at a higher rate was evidence of their undesirability when in fact it is well known that institutions including the GMC are institutionally racist. I have witnessed with my own eyes the shocking levels of racism that ethnic minority healthcare staff regularly out up with.

Thank you both. I have heard anecdotally that doctors who are not white are subject to more abuse from patients regardless of their status, personal ability and indeed nationality.

the views of senior Drs in this article are very much reflective of those on this thread. Practically word for word. There is not majority support in the public or even in the profession for this misguided strike action.

And nurses poetryandwine, unfortunately.

The previous threads illustrated shocking levels of xenophobia on the part of a number of posters (obviously not all, and notably not those who are consultants).

Thank you for confirming the anecdote OneMorePiece.

This does apply to NHS staff of all grades, to be fair.

Thank you both. I am sadly sure you are both correct. Restricted my comment to doctors only because they are the focus of the thread

If young doctors get their student loans written off even in part then it would be an outrage if nurses didn't - particularly the graduate entry nurses who have had to take a double loan; significantly more than doctors in total. A different Guardian article shows how the pay rise for resident doctors comes at the expense of pay rises for nurses too (also consultants, but they're probably better able to bear it). Nurses are really being shafted atm especially since they're far less able to strike/ forego pay on strike days. I really hope that the public get strongly behind the nurses in a way that they're not behind the resident doctors.

Racist abuse and discrimination towards staff and I’m sure patients as well is rife in the NHS despite a high proportion of ethnic minority staff. The abuse that I have witnessed colleagues just to put up with because it is hardly worth complaining is beyond belief. Often patients are given a pass for this behaviour for being ill or upset but the impact on staff is very real. Whenever I am in a position to do so I will call it out, send warning letters etc because the person on the receiving end often does not feel able. That’s a major reason why I don’t like to see immigration being blamed for U.K. Drs issues because immigration gets blamed for a lot in this country very unfairly and without acknowledging that it is a net benefit and especially to the NHS over many generations from Windrush onwards.

(of course I do know that IMG and ethnic minority Dr are not synonymous but there is substantial overlap)

What exactly are you trying to say here Sevillian?

I would be far more supportive of nurses striking than Drs. Nurses have got much expanded roles now and responsibilities that were down to Drs when I qualified are now increasingly being taken on by nurses whereas this has not been reflected in pay scales. I have worked with some excellent very experienced nurse consultants who could do quite a lot of my job (consultants won’t like that being said but it’s true) on a third of the pay. In other areas paramedics are doing jobs that GPs once did and doing it well. I would have no objection at all to a nurse or other appropriately trained person doing an endoscopy on me as this is a practical skill that mainly just needs practice. Basic surgery the same. Robots have started doing that now! Professional background is less of a hard boundary these days and Drs will increasingly have to justify why we get paid more than others in future as they start to encroach on our roles. It is pointless to try to hold back the tide on this as it’s already happening. Drs will need to show how they are unique and justify their high salaries. If we are prone to strike we’ll be replaced and not necessarily with overseas Drs…

I'm trying to say thank you for confirming the anecdote about the IMG. It's always reassuring these days to confirm that I'm not confused about who said what.

And should be reported

@mids2019 Snd are happy to join private/insurance health services in other countries

I have just reported, don't worry.

The baseless insults are a bit wearying so I reported straight away.

Many nurse consultants get £69,000 plus. That’s the start of the pay grade I think. So 1/3 of a consultant doctor? Possibly. There needs to be job evaluation to see if that’s an accurate reflection of the role.

I am all for any type of scheme using allowing for student loan relief upon completion of a certain amount of work in areas of national need. Nurses and other HCP in addition to doctors, of course.

As I said upthread, I wouldn’t stop there

@poetryandwine Speaking as a taxpayer, my bigger annoyance is Doctors going abroad that we have paid to train. All NHS training is paid for by the taxpayer or debt of the nation in terms of underwriting student loans. We do need some guarantee of service to those who pay for them.

Appeasing doctors is now a national pastime. I think we all know that Labour won’t stand up to them and kicked the door wide open for annual industrial action last year when they thought a huge pay rise would settle the matter. As if. It showed action brought results and who cared if people died?

Doctors now appear to find grievance after grievance. We are subject to threat after threat. Yet we don’t get any better care and certainly not in a timely manner.

@TizerorFizz I think we certainly need a mechanism for guaranteeing loan repayment if they decamp. Since taking US citizenship I am a dual taxpayer so I would think it possible. Of course anyone willing to forgo stepping foot on British soil can escape the consequences but I hope those would be few and far between.

Do you mean that those who take student loans are morally obliged to practise in the UK? I am not sure I agree (as long as they are honouring their loans). Britain is still the best English speaking country to live in, generally.

There was a time I might have said America, but certainly not now. Canada is nice in many ways but O, the cold! And medical staff are mainly needed in the harsh rural areas.

Australians are superficially very friendly, but the country is rather cutthroat in many ways and immigration is not a doddle as explained upthread. NZ is actually very small, and feels it, though lovely. The Asian, African and Middle Eastern countries where people are fluent in English require major cultural adjustments. I think many of the threats to emigrate are hollow. if they really want to go, why not let them?

Rollover thread if anyone wants to keep talking.

@poetryandwineAny student taking out the loan has it underwritten by the UK government. It’s a debt that’s getting bigger and bigger. I do think the uk has a right to expect some loyalty when doctors pay nowhere near the economic cost of their courses. Many employers expect this. We accept they have total freedom because we want and need doctors, but should we accept the cost when they don’t want to work here? Other students over pay to subsidise their courses too and many of them won’t get near what a Dr earns.

I hear what you say about working abroad and I honestly don’t know the emigration figures for doctors, but it’s the continual threat of going that really annoy me. No other country has a nhs. They all go to insurance funded healthcare. The NHs is always seen as the worst employer and yet it trains doctors to be hugely successful, well paid people who can work abroad. They have very portable skills. Some effort is required to secure positions no doubt, but I think people are getting fed up with the threats.

I don’t think the NHs should survive in its current state. I don’t believe Labour will do more than tinker with the untouchable behemoth though. They dare not. It’s a reason why Reform might get in though.

@TizerorFizz do you take the same view about all students paying back their loans or is it just doctors that you expect it of? Likewise should all graduates be expected to stay in the UK to apply their degrees and pay back to society in taxes and service?

That’s a good point about the cost of medical training, @TizerorFizz . The Office for Students overall Teaching Grant was about £1.4B in 2024-25, allocated to disciplines where training costs are high which presumably includes Medicine. I don’t know details.

I agree people are fed up with the threats to leave. Blackmail is always unattractive. But I feel the same way when billionaires (who are minimising their taxes anyway) threaten to decamp. At some level, people with that attitude aren’t much of a loss.

This is very different to thoughtful posts concerning the bottleneck for F2s, which I cannot assess, and the possible need for some to go abroad to progress their training.
I do sympathise there insofar as I understand it and agree something should be done for them.

I really don’t know what to think about the NHS. It has mainly but not always worked very well for my immediate family, but a lot of that has been luck. Too much is wrong now in spite of an enormous number of competent and dedicated HCPs.

Obviously a safety net is needed for those who cannot afford to pay, but when I’ve had my care from mutual insurance types of systems I have always found much to recommend.