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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 08/07/2025 11:58

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

Resident doctors in England vote to strike over pay

Vote comes after BMA criticised ‘woefully inadequate’ 5.4% award for medics formally known as junior doctors

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/08/resident-doctors-in-england-vote-to-strike-over-pay

OP posts:
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67
poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 10:33

MyHouseInThePrairie · 10/07/2025 10:26

Just now Physician Associate are paid more than doctors.
Despite being less trained, having less responsibilities etc etc….

If PA are worthy of that amount of money, why aren’t doctors worth more than that??

I bet PAs have a lower earnings cap. Do you know what it is?

In her media appearances Dr Melissa Ryan is focussing on F1 (first year after medical school) salaries. But training salaries rise very quickly (see my earlier posts) and she simply does not respond to questions about this. She is disingenuous at best, and I write that as someone normally sympathetic to workers’ rights.

BIossomtoes · 10/07/2025 10:36

Quirkswork · 10/07/2025 10:23

@BIossomtoes Tbf you are also using as "evidence" a blog from someone from the Leftist Scool of Economics. So..

Edited

You mean properly carried out research from the London School of Economics. Like I said, wilfully blind, so blind you don’t even realise.

poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 10:40

bluelavender · 10/07/2025 10:31

If you do relief on each year of the debt (rather than on the whole amount) then if someone leaves; they will still have the outstanding student debt liability if they choose to leave the NHS. It could also act proportionately if Dr's spend half their time in the NHS and half in private practice

Yes, good idea

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2025 10:44

bluelavender · 10/07/2025 10:20

It would also have the biggest impact for Dr's from poorer backgrounds; as they would have less access to family funds for studies and would have larger debts

Yes to relief on debt. It would make a huge difference for this reason. One of the issues with doctors is the number who come from families where there are already doctor and know the system of how to get a job, get their training and crucially have the funding to do it. This goes right from doing your UCAS application that the system is weighted against anyone who doesn't come from this background to begin with.

poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 10:49

Correction: My first post said F1 doctors are on over £36K whilst the figure in the second is £38K.

My second figures £38K/£44K are average pay including pay for overtime, unsocial hours, etc from a different site.

Basic pay for F1/F2 is roughly £36K/£42K for a step rise of 16.7%

oddandelsewhere · 10/07/2025 10:52

@Peppy88 it's ridiculous to compare what you would be paid in America with here.

They have no NHS, all of their work is private. If we had a totally private healthcare system then I have no doubt that doctors would be paid more. I also have no doubt that if you asked the striking doctors they would say that they wholeheartedly support the NHS. Even in Australia and New Zealand where junior doctors are always threatening to flounce off to they have a co payment system.

The harsh reality is that where healthcare is totally funded by the taxpayer doctors will be paid what the taxpayer can afford or thinks they are worth. In many cases that seems to be less than the very inexperienced and naive junior doctors think they are worth.

(And they mostly couldn't be top lawyers etc. The competition for jobs is far greater there than in the NHS.)

Needmoresleep · 10/07/2025 11:00

The BMA is a disgrace.

There is a huge crisis around unemployment for newly qualified doctors. Very few jobs, even year long contracts, and those that there are are open to world wide recruitment so attracting up to 2,000 applications. Over 50% of the places for speciality training went to doctors from overseas. So two alternatives, look for zero-hours NHS Bank or agency jobs where pay rates are dropping fast, or go to Australia.

When one of the BMA committees called for doctors resident in the UK to be given priority for training they were called "racist" and told to apologise. In the meantime doctors active in the BMA and GMC are running private training schools and agencies overseas, making money from bringing overseas doctors in. (BAPIO is one example.)

The newly qualified (F2) doctors I know don't want more pay. Pay is irrelevant if you don't have either a job or a career. The BMA really don't care. Perhaps it suits their members who are already in work to have a shortage. Even better if, when their members reach consultant level, lots of the specialists we have trained have returned to either their home countries or to private medicine in Dubai and Singapore. No pipeline, so a severe shortage of consultants - more pay, more private work. Lucky for them.

Needmoresleep · 10/07/2025 11:03

In many cases that seems to be less than the very inexperienced and naive junior doctors think they are worth.

My understanding is that Resident Doctor means anyone up to senior Registrar. Not junior at all.

Ihateboris · 10/07/2025 11:04

HoskinsChoice · 08/07/2025 13:58

Most doctors, unless they work part time or choose not to step up the grades (or aren't good enough!) will earn in the top 10% if UK salaries relatively quickly and the top 5% by the time they reach the highest grade.

We don't need to pay doctors more to keep them in the NHS. That's union bollox that you've been fed. The unions have a lot to answer for when it comes to T&C negotiations. They make all this bullshit up to gain sympathy from the public and support from the doctors. You are literally parroting the comedy they want you to parrot. Have a closer look at what they're saying...

Exactly. Also, they will get a tax payer funded pension that most of us could only dream of.

Swonderful · 10/07/2025 11:09

Flitwickflight · 08/07/2025 13:45

I thought there was a lengthy thread about how international doctors were taking all of the jobs here. Is there a shortage of doctors applying for the UK or not.

And there are virtually no public sector jobs as well paid as being an NHS doctor. You cannot really compare public sector salaries and private sector salaries. In the private sector - esp in professional services (legal / accountancy / management consulting) - pensions are pitiful and redundancy cycles happen all of the time. You can’t just compare salaries. That’s like comparing apples and pears. And what’s to say these medics have the suitable skills to excel in professional services? They step totally different careers.

I agree.

They always compare with the top private sector jobs in London but only a few earn those big salaries.

Experienced lawyers round here earn around £60k - £80k. Not too shabby but it less than a doctor and with a rubbish pension.

Lioncub2020 · 10/07/2025 11:13

There will be loads of posters saying pay them more, normally the posters, who want benefits and free housing for everyone apart from the 2 top billionaires who should pay for everything.

They need a reality check. The problem is the government gave in and now they will be back for more, every year. There is no shortage of people wanting to be Doctors. Lets increase the number we train and get the militant types out on their arses.

Lioncub2020 · 10/07/2025 11:14

I think they should get subsidised training through.

BIossomtoes · 10/07/2025 11:15

There will be loads of posters saying pay them more

Funnily enough there aren’t. The public support for them is negligible.

Everanewbie · 10/07/2025 11:16

I don't think resident doctors are striking for the right reason. Pay restoration is unrealistic and unfair on the tax payer. With on call rotas F1s can earn upwards of £45k, that's pretty good straight out of med school.

What they should be pitching this about is the work/life balance. The fact that training placements are now made at random so you are expected to up sticks and move your family to the other side of the country. Several times during training. If you show any reluctance to move you are labelled as not being committed to your specialty. The expectation to pay for insurances, memberships, exams, courses. The expectation that you have your own IT equipment and your own phone. The "on-call" shifts that are really just you working a literal 48 hour shift, not sitting at home waiting for a call.

There is so much to be striking about, but the headline pay is probably the least credible grievance they have after last years increase.

ipredictariot5 · 10/07/2025 11:18

Needmoresleep · 10/07/2025 11:00

The BMA is a disgrace.

There is a huge crisis around unemployment for newly qualified doctors. Very few jobs, even year long contracts, and those that there are are open to world wide recruitment so attracting up to 2,000 applications. Over 50% of the places for speciality training went to doctors from overseas. So two alternatives, look for zero-hours NHS Bank or agency jobs where pay rates are dropping fast, or go to Australia.

When one of the BMA committees called for doctors resident in the UK to be given priority for training they were called "racist" and told to apologise. In the meantime doctors active in the BMA and GMC are running private training schools and agencies overseas, making money from bringing overseas doctors in. (BAPIO is one example.)

The newly qualified (F2) doctors I know don't want more pay. Pay is irrelevant if you don't have either a job or a career. The BMA really don't care. Perhaps it suits their members who are already in work to have a shortage. Even better if, when their members reach consultant level, lots of the specialists we have trained have returned to either their home countries or to private medicine in Dubai and Singapore. No pipeline, so a severe shortage of consultants - more pay, more private work. Lucky for them.

Dr Melissa Ryan is from NZ who went to med school in Italy so how she can keep a straight face saying doctors are off to NZ and Aus when she is choosing to train in the NHS is beyond me. And she is technically an overseas graduate and in a training place the BMA are saying need to be kept for UK graduates
she is doing the profession no favours and I hope her hypocritical positron gets exposed for what it is as this is naked career ambition on her part

poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 11:29

Lioncub2020 · 10/07/2025 11:14

I think they should get subsidised training through.

I agree, as long as this is followed by a commitment to the NHS. The shortage of training contracts makes that difficult, however.

oddandelsewhere · 10/07/2025 11:32

Why on earth should they get subsidised training?

No one else does.

THEY ARE NOT SPECIAL

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/07/2025 11:39

Rather than a pay rise they need debt relief on their student debt. This will increase take home pay for the Drs; and can act as incentive to stay in thr NHS (as this could be linked to the debt relief)

I could definitely get onboard with that, @bluelavender, but really can't see anything that would be perceived as "tying them to the NHS" being popular when so much of the moaning concerns how much they could get in (insert country of choice)

In fact just that in itself could produce another strike Hmm

Nearly50omg · 10/07/2025 11:41

angelcake20 · 08/07/2025 13:03

Yes, they will probably not get much sympathy from the public. However, the reality is that junior doctors who have studied and worked hard for years are watching their peers in other industries earn much higher salaries and can see that they could earn double the pay in other countries. We need to pay them more to keep them in the NHS (and there needs to be a massive improvement in training and working conditions).

Yes they get paid double in other countries. However these countries are also the most expensive in the world to live in! Where your average mortgage is a million dollars for a tiny wooden shed on stilts and food is so expensive people on very high salaries avoid eating meat! Australia has a tax system where you have to pay for private healthcare whether you want to or not, prescriptions are full price - $150 for a child’s inhaler for example! - there are no £10 monthly prepayment certificates like in England or free prescriptions like in Scotland! Doctors in the uk can afford to live and live fairly well. Doctors in other countries who have all these extra costs struggle and also are paying 50%+ tax on ALL their salary not just the bit after £50,000

bluelavender · 10/07/2025 11:42

oddandelsewhere · 10/07/2025 11:32

Why on earth should they get subsidised training?

No one else does.

THEY ARE NOT SPECIAL

Lots of students get subsidised education. Students pay a capped level of tuition fee. Some courses cost less than this to run; some a lot more. Medical studies are expensive; but their training needs to be robust
As it costs SO much to train each Dr; we need to look at how we incentivise work in the NHS

poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 11:54

Although I usually favour internationalism I agree with @Needmoresleep that British educated students should be prioritised for training contracts. Advanced training is more effective when people have a common basic educational background.

America already does this. Exceptional international candidates can get resident doctor places at elite institutions, and the lowest ranked ones rejected by Americans end up with international candidates. It is hard for them to get places in between.

ThereWillBeSigns · 10/07/2025 12:07

The focus is always on money - that's the thing that rankles.

If they were demanding better conditions over and above the demands for more money - especially as poor working conditions are a threat to patient safety - then the public would be more sympathetic.

Needmoresleep · 10/07/2025 12:07

ipredictariot5 · 10/07/2025 11:18

Dr Melissa Ryan is from NZ who went to med school in Italy so how she can keep a straight face saying doctors are off to NZ and Aus when she is choosing to train in the NHS is beyond me. And she is technically an overseas graduate and in a training place the BMA are saying need to be kept for UK graduates
she is doing the profession no favours and I hope her hypocritical positron gets exposed for what it is as this is naked career ambition on her part

My understanding is that around 37% of the BMA went to overseas medical schools. Some will be very good, but there is little evidence that the BMA understands the issues around allowing young people to spend 5/6 years at medical school here and then two years as F1/F2 only to face unemployment.

This is not a minority of this cohort. This is the majority. Boris lifted the Resident Market Labour Test and declared all doctor jobs as skill shortage jobs, with the BMA backing him saying it was a brave move.

If/when my daughter is forced to seek work in Australia she will only be eligible for jobs suitably qualified doctors already resident in Australia don't want. So she expects to end up in a mining or agricultural town. She also won't be able to be considered for training until she has lived/worked in Australia for a set number of years. Not so in the UK. She is only aware of two in her Deanery who have got onto any form of specialist training including GP. The positions exist but are, as likely as not, to have gone to those like Dr Ryan who are not from the UK, did not study in the UK and quite possibly have never worked for the NHS. And equally probably, may be intending to work elsewhere when qualified.

They are not the "junior doctors" we think about, working in their first and second jobs, on four months rotations and covering nights and other anti-social shifts. These are Registrars and Senior Registrars undertaking six or so years specialist training with the aim of being consultants. Their pay is fine in most parts of the country including traditionally hard to recruit areas. London, with is excessive living costs, is different. But London is still the first choice of ambitious future consultants who want St Thomas' on their CV when they come to apply for their highly paid job in either a London Private Hospital or in Dubai. Many simply are not prepared to work in areas where the cost of living is lower. We should not be held to ransom. The money should be spent on actions that help sustain the NHS into the longer term.

If Wes wants to sort out the NHS his first step has to be to provide a career path for those happy to work in hard to recruit areas. And to do that he has to give priority to the 20,000 or so doctors who are already in the country and who will be unemployed in August when their F2, or fixed term contracts come to an end. The madness of the tax payer subsidising their education, consultants and others training them on the job, and of them taking our huge student loans for them to end up unemployed is bonkers. We should not be recruiting from overseas for entry level HCP jobs if we have young people already here who are well qualified and capable.

Beitidh · 10/07/2025 12:27

Tone deaf yes. I think that there needs to be an urgent change made in training doctors. I would advocate massively subsidising uni places for UK doctor training, in return for a binding commitment they do say 5-10 years in the NHS only (ie no sideline working private). if not then the subsidy they have received for their training has to be paid back by them over the same 5 years. Otherwise the uk is just funding the training of doctors for Canada etc and as a PP said to a very high standard.

Locutus2000 · 10/07/2025 12:36

poetryandwine · 10/07/2025 10:33

I bet PAs have a lower earnings cap. Do you know what it is?

In her media appearances Dr Melissa Ryan is focussing on F1 (first year after medical school) salaries. But training salaries rise very quickly (see my earlier posts) and she simply does not respond to questions about this. She is disingenuous at best, and I write that as someone normally sympathetic to workers’ rights.

She is disingenuous at best

Along with clinging to an outdated price index as the one everyone else uses shows a different picture and ignoring enhancements, same old from the BMA.

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