To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

I didn't say a lot of resident doctors, I said a lot of us reading along who are grateful that someone is sticking up for resident doctors. Doctors, non-doctors, other NHS staff, parents, various people who have told me so!

I don't personally believe her arguments have been dismantled or invalidated just because others say so. But as I said, I'm not posting again because I don't want to get drawn into it, ultimately no one is changing their minds here and it makes for infuriating reading.

Well I don't think you're the only poster who finds other posters or posts infuriating Hermione, so fair play.

That said, a bit odd that all these many people are taking time out to comment to you in rl about a MN thread. Very odd actually, not just a bit.

Well if you are just going to plop your comment in whilst stating that you won’t reply rather than join the discussion then there’s no point responding to it I guess.

The GMC report upthread has all the figures and it is factually correct that over 50% of FY2s didn’t apply for a training scheme in 2023. If it has changed so radically this year as to reverse that trend we will see when official figures are published. I would still contend that the likeliest explanation for a bottleneck this year is people who did not apply in the last 2 years deciding to do so at the same time as the current cohort rather than IMGs being to blame as is the narrative. I would also say that my lived experience with MMC in 2007/8 is very similar to the current issue and that perhaps it’s not as new or unique a phenomenon as it appears to you. Most importantly going on strike about pay will do precisely nothing to help the training job situation and will only serve to alienate the public. Mumsnet is a pretty good gauge of public opinion as many policymakers have realised so the way this thread has gone might be an indication of the general feeling in the country re: striking Drs.

I do not think that I have been personally critical of mumsneedwine I have merely engaged in debate and disagreed politely with her points which is the point of a discussion board.

More than a bit odd that you are pointing resident doctors to the thread, Sevillian. Why would you need to do that?

I don't 'need' to ShellacofChopin. A few younger family members (medics) read a number of posts on the earlier threads slagging off IMGs and were unimpressed. Dismissive too. Certainly deeply unimpressed by the thinly veiled [fill in the blank/s].

As I say, odd to have people in rl talking about MN threads. Not in the least odd to be having coffee with other people and a phone open, seeing yet another wild post and reading it out and scrolling back to a few of the other more outrageous posts. Just normal life.

I didn't discuss it with Black or Heard!

I never met either of them

So what you are describing is discussing MN posts in real life with young medics, although that is so odd when someone else is doing it. Does it make it so much more credible if coffee is involved and it is done real time?

It was the litany of groups that Hermione listed as having come to her to comment that made it sound decidedly clunky.

Here you go:

I said a lot of us reading along who are grateful that someone is sticking up for resident doctors. Doctors, non-doctors, other NHS staff, parents, various people who have told me so!

A bit different from having a coffee with DC while all on our phones and me going omg read this what do you think?

And why would this large ('lots') group of disparate people need a random poster with absolutely no medical background whatever, and no reason for or evidence of special insight (judging by the posts), to 'stick up' for resident doctors on a social media site? That's frankly bizarre.

Is that you Agnes?

Sevillian, I don't know whether you (genuinely) are not aware of the issues affecting the latest cohorts of doctors seeking speciality training posts or whether you are motivated to discredit a lot of what has been said due to any vested interests you may have. Whatever it is, the reality and true figures relating to doctor unemployment will soon be revealed.

I’m completely well aware OneMorePiece, thank you for your enquiry.

I’m also glad for the insight provided on this thread by others who are trying to stem some of the self serving hyperbole and drama around the subject.

Are you the poster who described an incident with a particular IMG on other threads?

Which IMG are you referring to?

And for the record I am not employed by BAPIO indeed I have no interest in BAPIO vested or otherwise.

Well the IMG wasn’t named but whichever poster it was complained a lot about the individual and said they couldn’t understand a word the IMG was saying. The anecdote has been repeated several times.

Was that the thread when you called yourself Wooley? Not sure if it was you who name changed several times? You have a very similar style and mentioned the coffee thing then too but you were Wooley that time?

How does asking me if I’ve name changed on MN (and I haven’t used the name you mention, as it happens) in any way answer my question to you about this account of the incomprehensible IMG?

I haven’t mentioned coffee before other than in the post a couple of pages back where I referenced one of mumsneedwine’s posts where she produced a Cambridge graduate/ F2 for illustrative purposes and he had apparently just showed up at that very moment for coffee, by astonishing luck. Other than that, not guilty of coffee.

Well unlike all the IMG doctors I have seen before, the experience with this particular doctor was very poor. She was a recent recruit and the level of her English was unfortunately a barrier in communicating. I had waited many many months for something that I was supposed to be seen urgently. If you use the NHS, you will know the appointment time is rather short. She couldn't understand what I was asking her about my condition. I repeated my questions a couple of times and had to rephrase them a few times too. She was a nice person and tried her best to answer but she couldn't give satisfactory answers as she was struggling with English. I asked if the consultant was there but he wasn't. She conducted a procedure. I have had other doctors do this procedure in the past but with no pain but she really caused a lot of pain. I have seen many IMG doctors in the past and have had no issues with them at all. Not surprising that there are some great IMG doctors in the NHS but this particular new IMG recruit was poor. If you had waited months for an urgent appointment, would you then want to have to deal with the doctor having communication issues and that being a barrier to her understanding your condition? Then have to endure days of pain because of the way she carried out the procedure? Before you say, it's racist or anti-IMG, it's not! A doctor has messed up my care. I waited months. I would be angry regardless of the race or nationality of the doctor!

@Sevillian Does this answer the question? Teacher guru of all things medical.

Drs from the Indian sub continent generally have excellent English and have had their medical
education in English. They also have to pass an English language test as well as a medical proficiency test. Not to say there could not be a bad penny but there are safeguards against it and English proficiency has not been an issue in my experience in a communication heavy specialty. Cultural norms and idiom do have to be learnt but equally we have sizeable minority communities in the U.K. where I am at a disadvantage on that front.

Another point which has not been mentioned but again is in the GMC report is that pre Brexit we had a sizeable number of Drs from the EU who had a right to come and work here and could not be language tested. They were usually the worst culprits for poor language skills in my experience. Since Brexit we no longer have European Drs coming under that route and some of those numbers will have been replaced by other IMGs. The graph in the GMC report upthread shows this clearly although there is still an overall increase in IMGs year on year. I think that’s why Boris changed the rules in the first place because he was afraid of having not enough foreign Drs post Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/22/nhs-resident-doctors-on-strikes-callout-responses

Desperation from some in the BMA as they see how unpopular the strikes are playing the class card and wanting pity from the vast majority of the population that won't have the same lifetime earnings.

Firstly there are relatively few working class doctors sadly and you don't suddenly get more pay than others because you come from a poor backgeound. That's not how it works. There are probably far more nurses from a poor background who are demanding less so this is a poor argument.

There is also maybe a bit of an insult towards middle class doctors suggesting they are simply living off the bank of mummy and daddy which I don't think is the case for many.

I think you could change some views on immigration in this country by showing you have a better more efficient heath service with immigrant medical staff. The strike by junior doctors might highlight this and show of you purely reliant on British doctors you are consigned to years of industrial action which could ultimately break the NHS.

There seems to absolutely no regard to the NHS as a principle in these strikes and I think a lot of doctors view themselves as medical professionals who have the misfortune to reside in a country with socialised medicine and accept employment by the NHS with reluctance.

It is an irony that so many cheered the NHS during the pandemic without realising how many of its employees actually don't favour it's exiatence.

Genuine question: is it slagging off IMGs to wonder if British educated should get priority for training posts? It seems to me part of protecting the taxpayer investment in their education.

And it is a taxpayer investment until their loans are settled. Sure, doctors are intelligent and perhaps most who do not continue will pay loans off anyway, but it is not a great thing to invest in highly specialised training that leaves people in a semi-qualified state.

(Any reply that universities have worse degree programmes than UG medicine is no sort of argument at all.)