I give up with my 4yr old…

[Changeminds20]

I have a very sassy, clever, highly intelligent, stubborn, caring, kind (just turned ) 4yr old DD…..
she doesn’t eat much…. Even started saying she doesn’t like Ham/cheese, which she used to like. She is the fussiest eater not like me and her father who like most things.

My issue is bedtime…. It’s becoming relentless.
Routine for a young age, start routine around 7pm, usually takes her a while to calm down, we’ve tried lights, soft sleep playlists, magnesium tablets ( mighty kids) now using sleep butter on her feet ( sweet bee) we have a Yoto machine that plays stories, I’ve taken all her toys out her room, I’ve tried leaving her to self soothe, I’ve sat with her….. we’ve given her porridge before bed, literally feel like we’ve tried and are trying everything, she still won’t go to sleep before 9pm, she’s been awake when me and her father are also going to bed. Sometimes she comes into our room at 4/5am ish, so has broken sleep, sometimes she has to be woken up for nursery.

Nursery say she doesn’t eat much when there but she has so much energy and runs around, she’s comes home and doesn’t seem tired at all ( she does 8am-6pm)

She isn’t a child who falls asleep in the car even if it’s late, she’s really fights it.

People keep telling me once she starts school this sept she will tire herself out, is this true? Or so I just have a child whose brain can’t switch off.

She doesn’t have any ism and I don’t agree with labelling children so young with ADHD…( as I believe we are all on the spectrum line somewhere)

I have a child like this. For me, if shes not sleeping until 9 anyway, don't waste so much time with bedtime wind down from 7. Start at like 8, and do some sensory stuff with her, carrying something heavy/let her go crazy/dance for 15mins. Lean into it. Then a book or 2 and then I usually give her the story of her day. E.g you woke up and had breakfast, went to nursery, played with your friends blah blah. It might be worth a try.

I will say its so tiring having this type of child, especially when everyone else kid seems to do 7-7!

She’s trying to spend more time with you, I would say.

No advice, our is more broken sleep, but another who is pinning hopes on this mythical school induced sleepiness! I just want a full night's sleep

Well I can't possibly recommend buying melatonin from the States when we were in your position without people judging you

Some children don't need the amount of sleep that the books say they do!
Two of mine were exactly the same, and now my 4 yr old grandson is exactly like it.
Starting bedtime routine at 7 seems a bit pointless tbh if she doesn't go to sleep for several hours...it's just dragging the evening on. Would she be ok staying up and playing with the understanding that it's your time now so she has to play quietly? Then at 9pm.. into bed, story, lights out...

My dgs goes t some point between 8 and 9pm, bath, story and cuddle, but no special measures. But he wakes at some point every night and gets in with mum and dad (or me, when he has sleepovers) and is up somewhere between 5 and 6.... full of energy. He's in preschool all day, does activities a couple of days a week and still doesn't need much sleep!

My DD1 was a non eating , always wired, never sleeping child. It wore us out...but she did turn out to be very bright (and now a doctor... her not needing sleep was a bonus when she was on rotations!)... I wouldn't hold out too much hope that school will change her!

My 5 year old was and is like this.

Im afraid school had no impact.

And no we aren’t all on the spectrum.

Stop wasting your time trying to get a 7pm bed time dd1 was like this and we never got her to bed at 7 even once she started school. Try 8 and see if she is more tired trust me if they're not tired it just won't work and it's just draining. Neither of my kids have been In bed by 7 aged 4 just me r tired enough by that point

She ain't sleepy at that time, later bed time and get rid of the stress.

Melatonin.

also, honestly if she’s in her room quietly listening to stories I don’t see the issue.

the getting up at 5 am obviously not great but it is light at that time… blackout blinds?

As much as I agree some children have low sleep needs, eight hours is VERY low for a four year old and may be affecting behaviour and / or diet even.

I don’t necessarily have answers here but I do think it’s important not to normalise the extraordinary too much.

Why is no one picking up on her very long nursery day?

Can you get melatonin in the UK for kids? Is it over the counter or prescribed? I am following this thread as also have the same issue with DS!

I don’t think she’s starting the day at 4am/5am. I read that as she goes back to sleep when in with the OP. But I may be wrong. And yes, if she is only sleeping 9pm until 4 or 5am I would be concerned, even for low sleep needs kids.

It has to be prescribed in the uk. You can buy it from the USA online and have shipped.

YABU to say we are all on the spectrum OP

Yeah we got our melatonin from America.

it’s otc there - I used it when travelling over there as it’s recommended there for jet lag. Loved the stuff and we brought some back but American amazon will ship to you (or at least used to).

doesn’t work on all kids - we had a 50% success rate

Because it’s Mumsnet. Agree. Take her to bed with you, snuggle her in. Bet she sleeps.

Who are these people pushing a sleep drug on a four year old? I’m scared about how medication is a knee jerk reaction. Look at the wider picture.
life is not a problem to be solved.

Not all on the spectrum. The spectrum is something to illustrate the profile of someone who is autistic not everybody. It’s not linear. Agree your child is young for adhd assessment but if there are indications of autism or adhd then be aware assessment waits are often years long. It’s easy to come off the list if you no longer have concerns. If there is a difference understanding that is protective. It’s not about changing children it’s about have a frame of reference to better support and understand your child which improves mental health trajectory as well.

But she only sees her parents for 1hr per day, other than when they’re trying to get her to off to nursery or to sleep!
so wouldn’t you look at that before talking about autism?

Don't worry she won't be diagnosed with ADHD at 4 anyway. And yes ADHD is more of a bell curve condition, like eyesight, and everyone is on that bell curve somewhere but if you are in the end where it's significantly impacting life it is very useful to have it recognised and treated - just saying.

Four is a tricky age anyway, my youngest is nearly four and SO stubborn at the moment, he's been through stubborn phases before but this is another level and they seem to go through a needlessly defiant stage too where they have to try out what happens when they do exactly the opposite of what anybody asks them to.

Yes I do think school helps a lot, although she'll be young in the year, I think? I would brace yourselves for a lot more emotions and stroppiness at least until Christmas. Try to cut her a bit of slack and see the positive intent while sticking to the usual boundaries etc.

I was full of empathy until I read the last sentence or two. Firstly, getting a medical diagnosis of any type of neurodivergence isn’t a label, it’s a diagnosis. Secondly we are 100% not all on the spectrum somewhere. That’s the equivalent of suggesting no one should be diagnosed with asthma because we all get out of breath sometimes. I strongly suggest you educate yourself as by the sounds of what I read you’re doing to need to.

ps. In anticipation of the suggestion “everyone has adhd these days” WHO and UNESCO place it at around 5-7% of any population. In the UK less than 1% of the population have a diagnosis so it is absolutely not a label handed out to anyone and everyone.

Also agree youngest is not really tired for a 7pm bedtime and is taking longer to fall asleep now if we try to put him to bed that early.

Tricky because almost-7yo does really need the 8pm bedtime and they don't sleep if we let them go to bed together.

Me! No problem at all 👍

OP didn’t say bedtime is at 7pm, she said that that’s when they start the routine. So bedtime is probably aiming for 8pm.