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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I give up with my 4yr old…

147 replies

Changeminds20 · 06/07/2025 20:29

I have a very sassy, clever, highly intelligent, stubborn, caring, kind (just turned ) 4yr old DD…..
she doesn’t eat much…. Even started saying she doesn’t like Ham/cheese, which she used to like. She is the fussiest eater not like me and her father who like most things.

My issue is bedtime…. It’s becoming relentless.
Routine for a young age, start routine around 7pm, usually takes her a while to calm down, we’ve tried lights, soft sleep playlists, magnesium tablets ( mighty kids) now using sleep butter on her feet ( sweet bee) we have a Yoto machine that plays stories, I’ve taken all her toys out her room, I’ve tried leaving her to self soothe, I’ve sat with her….. we’ve given her porridge before bed, literally feel like we’ve tried and are trying everything, she still won’t go to sleep before 9pm, she’s been awake when me and her father are also going to bed. Sometimes she comes into our room at 4/5am ish, so has broken sleep, sometimes she has to be woken up for nursery.

Nursery say she doesn’t eat much when there but she has so much energy and runs around, she’s comes home and doesn’t seem tired at all ( she does 8am-6pm)

She isn’t a child who falls asleep in the car even if it’s late, she’s really fights it.

People keep telling me once she starts school this sept she will tire herself out, is this true? Or so I just have a child whose brain can’t switch off.

She doesn’t have any ism and I don’t agree with labelling children so young with ADHD…( as I believe we are all on the spectrum line somewhere)

OP posts:
Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:33

Screen time is about 1 hr in a normal day, some days non. And I mean tv time not iPads, she’s only allowed to watch certain things at certain times of the day, ie: Sunday afternoon we may all watch a film as a family, compared to a Wednesday afternoon it might be a few episodes of Bluey. We are outside a lot, we do lots of drawing, writing, reading, arts and crafts.

OP posts:
Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:38

Caligirl80 · 07/07/2025 02:33

Seems to me that this kiddo needs to be tired out more before bed. And one activity that is guaranteed to tire kids out is swimming. Take her swimming to lessons with a teacher - that way she's being taught and actually swimming (and you can read a book and have some downtime while watching her). The upside to swimming is that it may well make her hungry too. Other activities that tire them out seem to be stuff like trampoline club (I personally loathe trampolines - too many potential injuries - but trampoline clubs often put them in a harness so they are more controlled). If you can't afford extra classes or lessons then go on walks, or bike rides, or to the local park that has a climbing frame etc. Make it fun for her to run around and climb all over the equipment etc.

If she's smart then start doing more than just reading with her: get her writing/doing logic games/learning how to do stuff that is mentally taxing. If she's over stimulated then avoid things like competitive games or agitated music/TV etc. Opt for baths rather than showers before bed. Ideally she will be reading herself soon - which means you can leave her with lots of books to read in bed if she is bored/can't sleep - at the moment you can leave her with picture books.

Some children can be fidgety/anxious etc if they have growing pains - you can get things like foot rollers etc so she can have a useful fidgeting option.

I would caution against allowing her to stay up late - at that age they need a lot of sleep. I would also caution against giving her whatever she wants to eat just because she's picky: she needs to have a balanced diet - too much sugar/salt/junk will also make her less able to regulate herself, and will cause sugar highs/crashes that make sleep difficult. If she really won't eat then ask the GP for help and a referral to a specialist to help.

She has one on on swimming lessons and is in the deep pool so is working very hard on these lessons ( compared to a group lesson)
she also does ballet classes, she’s just one stimulated little girl.

OP posts:
Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:41

comoatoupeira · 07/07/2025 08:54

To be fair, you didn’t say in your post OP that she only goes 2 days a week. You were describing her routine so understandable everyone thought you meant 8am to 6pm five days a week

Wish I could afford 5 days a week…. 😆 ( that was a joke ) I love spending time with her.

OP posts:
Charlotte120221 · 07/07/2025 15:43

She's obviously hard wired not to need much sleep.

I think being open minded about why would be helpful now - if it is autism or ADHD then there may be specific strategies and treatments that would help.

Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:44

NewDogOwner · 07/07/2025 09:08

Of course she won't go to sleep when she only has an hour of an evening. She needs time to adjust, to spend time with you, with her things and to wind down. Cut the nursery down to 4 pm and you can expect a child to be ready for bed by 7 or move the bedtime. It is a little concerning that you haven't thought of this and have jumped straight to neurodiverse.

She’s in twice a week, I hardly think it’s concerning when I’m pretty sure ( in fact I know) parents whose kids are in all week until that time. So what about the other 5 days a week she’s spent with me, playing in the park, swimming, ballet, learning to ride a bike, drawing, balancing, building things, arts and crafts, walking,….. how do I get her to sleep after than days?

OP posts:
Hankunamatata · 07/07/2025 15:47

Iv a friend who only needs 4 hours sleep

If dd happily stays in room quietly, playing with her toys, talking to her teddies etc then let her get on with it. You can't force sleep. Do usual bedtime, leave night light on for a bit if light for her to potter about. When she is tired she will go to bed.

Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:47

User37482 · 07/07/2025 09:51

She sounds very much like my DD, also dropped naps by 18 months, always struggled to get her down for any kind of nap/sleep. She can’t switch off at bedtime, didn’t sleep through until after five years old (probably second term of reception is when she started sleeping through). Honestly just later bedtimes, mine needed less than ten hours sleep, she still fought it of course.

Mines also quite bright (she’s doing work from the end of the year above, so it’s not just me being her mum making me say it). She’s completely NT (I badgered her teachers about this and they all said I was being stupid). Very physically active, 6 hours of sports a week outside of school plus lots of general running around. Mines fallen asleep in the car precisely once (she’s 6 so plenty of opportunities to). She is also never tired, she loves her food though.

I think this is just who she is tbh. Some kids are just like this. We’ve tried different things and nothing really works so we’ve just accepted it.

Thank you. I just needed to hear if this is a thing and are there any other parents dealing with a similar situation.

OP posts:
Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 15:50

BertieBotts · 07/07/2025 10:24

Actually if she does have a lot of energy and likes to throw herself about a lot and seems to seek out a lot of body contact (does she drape herself on you or try to burrow into people with her head?) that can be a sensory thing where they are seeking deep pressure type touch.

A weighted blanket could help (check the safety on it for her age, though, as they can carry a risk of suffocation for young children) or giving her a very firm before-bed massage - if you look up "deep pressure massage child bedtime" there are some videos which demonstrate it well. There is one I don't know if there's a video of it, but there's one where you "make brownies" on their back which is a lovely wind down routine.

No I don’t think so, she’s a mummy’s girl for sure so everything is for me. Maybe that’s why I find it difficult after a long day of being attached to my leg, ( not all day, she’s currently upstairs playing with her toys independently) but you get what I’m saying, bed time I love a cuddle with her but it’s the late nights and the up and down the stairs.

OP posts:
Chungai · 07/07/2025 15:52

We used to lie or sit with my DC until they were asleep.

Annoying but no up and down the stairs business and they went to sleep slightly more quickly. Still sometimes 1.5 hours 😂

jeaux90 · 07/07/2025 15:55

My DD16 was like this. And yes she does have ADHD. I gave up and co-slept until she about 5 as it was the only way as a lone parent working full time.

SoddingSoda · 07/07/2025 16:05

How much outdoor time is she having at nursery?

She might not be actually tired if their set up is one room with maybe a little playground outside.

Maybe try picking her up, taking her out for a long walk to the park to let out some energy/relax?

Imagine going coming home from work, having less than an hour (you say 6pm, what time are you actually home?) then going to bed. She needs some sort of ‘evening’ to play/let off steam then some genuine downtime.

I think the day is too long for her right now. Anyway you could move around your day? Finish work earlier then log back on for an hour or two in the evening?

eqpi4t2hbsnktd · 07/07/2025 16:26

I think sometimes trying too much is the problem. All the foot rubbing, soothing music, medicine taking, eating porridge is stimulating!

Just go to bed later. Maybe go to bed with her... like crash together at 9:30....

PansyPotter84 · 07/07/2025 16:42

Changeminds20 · 06/07/2025 20:29

I have a very sassy, clever, highly intelligent, stubborn, caring, kind (just turned ) 4yr old DD…..
she doesn’t eat much…. Even started saying she doesn’t like Ham/cheese, which she used to like. She is the fussiest eater not like me and her father who like most things.

My issue is bedtime…. It’s becoming relentless.
Routine for a young age, start routine around 7pm, usually takes her a while to calm down, we’ve tried lights, soft sleep playlists, magnesium tablets ( mighty kids) now using sleep butter on her feet ( sweet bee) we have a Yoto machine that plays stories, I’ve taken all her toys out her room, I’ve tried leaving her to self soothe, I’ve sat with her….. we’ve given her porridge before bed, literally feel like we’ve tried and are trying everything, she still won’t go to sleep before 9pm, she’s been awake when me and her father are also going to bed. Sometimes she comes into our room at 4/5am ish, so has broken sleep, sometimes she has to be woken up for nursery.

Nursery say she doesn’t eat much when there but she has so much energy and runs around, she’s comes home and doesn’t seem tired at all ( she does 8am-6pm)

She isn’t a child who falls asleep in the car even if it’s late, she’s really fights it.

People keep telling me once she starts school this sept she will tire herself out, is this true? Or so I just have a child whose brain can’t switch off.

She doesn’t have any ism and I don’t agree with labelling children so young with ADHD…( as I believe we are all on the spectrum line somewhere)

At this age not wanting going to bed/sleep could be due to any of the following:

  1. Overtiredness/excess energy;
  2. Diet- something triggering the metabolism;
  3. Toilet anxiety (not wanting to wet the bed/ being kept awake by residual wee in the bladder);
  4. Worries/ over-thinking (about friends, school, irrational fears).

Always worth a chat when she’s in a calm safe situation and seeing if anything is worrying her.

theresapossuminthekitchen · 07/07/2025 17:19

My son has always viewed sleeping and eating as things that waste time when he could be doing something else! He is also incredibly clever - academically, but also in terms of a quick wit and incessant curiosity. He did fall asleep in a car, thankfully, so for years we would try and make the most of that whenever we could! However, we didn’t have the ‘sleep until 9am’ side - up at 6 am no matter what time he went to sleep. So, it’s always been a long bedtime routine for us including lots of stories and chatting and singing songs (us not him) - we’ve only recently cut it right back now he’s turning 14… He’d still prefer the attention/physical contact (he loves to be stroked, but has never been particularly cuddly the rest of the day) even now, to be honest, but he can at least go to sleep without it. I think you have to lean-in to what she wants/needs because the current situation isn’t working well if you’re stressed and worn out and she’s not getting enough sleep. I would assume that, even if you’ve spent all day together, it won’t be enough for her (I was a SAHM and spent literally every waking moment with my son, it was still not enough!) and therefore give her whatever she needs to help switch off and sleep - sit in with her, sing, stroke, read, talk at her (not with her…easier said that done!) and don’t leave the room until she’s asleep. We went from sitting there for over an hour to it being around 10/15 minutes - it took months to do that, and that was where we settled at for about 8 years! He coped fine when he stayed at GPs or residentials, once we had him in better sleep habits.

Best of luck! (And if it helps, my second child was very different and slept well from the beginning - so definitely not anything you’ve done, just luck of the draw.)

Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 17:20

SoddingSoda · 07/07/2025 16:05

How much outdoor time is she having at nursery?

She might not be actually tired if their set up is one room with maybe a little playground outside.

Maybe try picking her up, taking her out for a long walk to the park to let out some energy/relax?

Imagine going coming home from work, having less than an hour (you say 6pm, what time are you actually home?) then going to bed. She needs some sort of ‘evening’ to play/let off steam then some genuine downtime.

I think the day is too long for her right now. Anyway you could move around your day? Finish work earlier then log back on for an hour or two in the evening?

She’s outside a lot at nursery, they have multiple rooms. I aim to collect her at 5:30 we are home by 5:40 as we live close, in the summer months we walk home or go to the beach for a bit. I understand the down time after and honestly she gets that also, my parents live on a 3acre plot, she has loads of space to run around if we pop up there on our days together. Also my job isn’t a log on and off to make up time I’m a hairdresser so the jobs needs to be done and then my day is over.

OP posts:
Original poster
Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 17:23

theresapossuminthekitchen · 07/07/2025 17:19

My son has always viewed sleeping and eating as things that waste time when he could be doing something else! He is also incredibly clever - academically, but also in terms of a quick wit and incessant curiosity. He did fall asleep in a car, thankfully, so for years we would try and make the most of that whenever we could! However, we didn’t have the ‘sleep until 9am’ side - up at 6 am no matter what time he went to sleep. So, it’s always been a long bedtime routine for us including lots of stories and chatting and singing songs (us not him) - we’ve only recently cut it right back now he’s turning 14… He’d still prefer the attention/physical contact (he loves to be stroked, but has never been particularly cuddly the rest of the day) even now, to be honest, but he can at least go to sleep without it. I think you have to lean-in to what she wants/needs because the current situation isn’t working well if you’re stressed and worn out and she’s not getting enough sleep. I would assume that, even if you’ve spent all day together, it won’t be enough for her (I was a SAHM and spent literally every waking moment with my son, it was still not enough!) and therefore give her whatever she needs to help switch off and sleep - sit in with her, sing, stroke, read, talk at her (not with her…easier said that done!) and don’t leave the room until she’s asleep. We went from sitting there for over an hour to it being around 10/15 minutes - it took months to do that, and that was where we settled at for about 8 years! He coped fine when he stayed at GPs or residentials, once we had him in better sleep habits.

Best of luck! (And if it helps, my second child was very different and slept well from the beginning - so definitely not anything you’ve done, just luck of the draw.)

So funny you should say about sleeping at others houses…. She goes to sleep absolutely fine for other people…. Rascal. Thanks for the advice. I’ll take it on board.

OP posts:
One3C · 07/07/2025 17:27

Gastons5dozenEggs · 06/07/2025 21:26

Can you get melatonin in the UK for kids? Is it over the counter or prescribed? I am following this thread as also have the same issue with DS!

Show quote history

I get it on prescription from my GP, I finally have my evenings back!

One3C · 07/07/2025 17:28

ilovepixie · 06/07/2025 22:11

Why have children if you’re just going to farm them out to nursery all day! Might as well Just send her to boarding school for all the time you spend with her! then they can take over the problem!

You look after her then

Eastermuppet · 07/07/2025 17:58

My ds was like this, sleep got much better from about 8 yrs old and from about 10 he stopped trying to fight sleep. Now a teen and a heavy sleeper but probably still needs less than average. It is tricky but I would push bedtime back, school helped a bit but not significantly, I feel your pain

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 07/07/2025 18:38

Changeminds20 · 07/07/2025 17:23

So funny you should say about sleeping at others houses…. She goes to sleep absolutely fine for other people…. Rascal. Thanks for the advice. I’ll take it on board.

Show quote history

What conclusions do you draw from that?

She's messing you about. Just take her to bed at a reasonable hour and have a brief story and cuddle. Then leave her. Stop all the stroking and massaging. Show her you're the boss, not her.

Bananarama2000 · 07/07/2025 18:44

She sees you for one hour annd is probably wired for it. Also like many people who need to decompress after a work day before bed, she’s coming back and almost immediately into bed routine.
Also as with small babies the more sleep they get the better they sleep, feed, behaviour and so on. Bit of a vicious cycle.
I think the long days are having an adverse effect, tbh not sure how you’d alter that as I’m assuming it’s due to necessity.

putitovertherefornow · 07/07/2025 22:28

Bananarama2000 · 07/07/2025 18:44

She sees you for one hour annd is probably wired for it. Also like many people who need to decompress after a work day before bed, she’s coming back and almost immediately into bed routine.
Also as with small babies the more sleep they get the better they sleep, feed, behaviour and so on. Bit of a vicious cycle.
I think the long days are having an adverse effect, tbh not sure how you’d alter that as I’m assuming it’s due to necessity.

The OP has already pointed out that she is only in nursery two days a week, not all week.

Original poster
Changeminds20 · 08/07/2025 07:57

Bananarama2000 · 07/07/2025 18:44

She sees you for one hour annd is probably wired for it. Also like many people who need to decompress after a work day before bed, she’s coming back and almost immediately into bed routine.
Also as with small babies the more sleep they get the better they sleep, feed, behaviour and so on. Bit of a vicious cycle.
I think the long days are having an adverse effect, tbh not sure how you’d alter that as I’m assuming it’s due to necessity.

She only has two long days a week, so highly unlikely that it has anything to do with being with me for ‘just and hour’ but I’ll take that on board thanks

OP posts:
Petrie999 · 08/07/2025 08:15

Moveoverdarlin · 06/07/2025 23:22

She’s over tired. She goes past the point of tiredness and then plays up. 8am-6pm is a really long day, for an adult, let alone a four year old. My suggestion would be to take her up upstairs and start the bath, bed routine at 5.45pm. That’s what I did for my 4 year old who sounds very similar. She’s a terrible eater too. But every night we go upstairs at quarter to 6, bath, lots of playing and messing around. Dry hair, messing around in my bedroom on the bed whilst drying hair, in to her own room, pyjamas on, story, bit of singing and leave. At 4 years old, she needs to be asleep by 7pm. It’s hard at the moment because of the light evenings but I close the curtains and put on her light by her bed so it looks no different. I think you need to start the routine much earlier but appreciate she’s in nursery till 6pm. Things will change when she starts school and you’ll then be in a position to get her to bed earlier.

This is just not true though. 4 year olds need between 10 and 13 hours sleep. It varies with each child. Average overnight sleep is 10-11hrs, not 12. No one needs to go to sleep at 7pm as a blanket rule, as that would mean many children then waking for the day at 5am having done their sleep needs. Over tiredness can absolutely cause dysregulation and bedtime battles but an earlier bedtime may just produce a much longer period of faffing about and more frustration all round. If I started bedtime routine at 5.45pm with my 2.5yo he would absolutely wake for the day at 5am. I'm envious of those who can do this, but it's not the same for everyone

Merryoldgoat · 08/07/2025 10:02

Petrie999 · 08/07/2025 08:15

This is just not true though. 4 year olds need between 10 and 13 hours sleep. It varies with each child. Average overnight sleep is 10-11hrs, not 12. No one needs to go to sleep at 7pm as a blanket rule, as that would mean many children then waking for the day at 5am having done their sleep needs. Over tiredness can absolutely cause dysregulation and bedtime battles but an earlier bedtime may just produce a much longer period of faffing about and more frustration all round. If I started bedtime routine at 5.45pm with my 2.5yo he would absolutely wake for the day at 5am. I'm envious of those who can do this, but it's not the same for everyone

Show quote history

I agree with this. Both of my children just need less sleep than others. They have NEVER slept 12 hours unless unwell.

The younger has been going to bed around 9 for years and wakes up bouncy as hell by 7.30 latest.

IF he’s tired is obvious and we put him down earlier.