I give up with my 4yr old…

[Changeminds20]

I have a very sassy, clever, highly intelligent, stubborn, caring, kind (just turned ) 4yr old DD…..
she doesn’t eat much…. Even started saying she doesn’t like Ham/cheese, which she used to like. She is the fussiest eater not like me and her father who like most things.

My issue is bedtime…. It’s becoming relentless.
Routine for a young age, start routine around 7pm, usually takes her a while to calm down, we’ve tried lights, soft sleep playlists, magnesium tablets ( mighty kids) now using sleep butter on her feet ( sweet bee) we have a Yoto machine that plays stories, I’ve taken all her toys out her room, I’ve tried leaving her to self soothe, I’ve sat with her….. we’ve given her porridge before bed, literally feel like we’ve tried and are trying everything, she still won’t go to sleep before 9pm, she’s been awake when me and her father are also going to bed. Sometimes she comes into our room at 4/5am ish, so has broken sleep, sometimes she has to be woken up for nursery.

Nursery say she doesn’t eat much when there but she has so much energy and runs around, she’s comes home and doesn’t seem tired at all ( she does 8am-6pm)

She isn’t a child who falls asleep in the car even if it’s late, she’s really fights it.

People keep telling me once she starts school this sept she will tire herself out, is this true? Or so I just have a child whose brain can’t switch off.

She doesn’t have any ism and I don’t agree with labelling children so young with ADHD…( as I believe we are all on the spectrum line somewhere)

Tonight’s update:
for all the people saying I need to spend more time with my DD, I took it on board after a nursery day…. I spent 1.5 hrs playing in her room, Reading books and looking at where’s wally to try and get her to calm down before bed, this had no positive affect on the little rascal who played up for the next hour or so, meaning sleep time was officially 10:15 tonight.

🙄😴 I’m a tired woman with a child who only wants mummy at the difficult times.

We used a star chart for staying in his bed. We also had a video monitor so we could see what he was doing. We have had some success with brown noise and a weighted blanket. On occasion I have lay with him making him do slow deep breaths which works if he will cooperate.
All the solidarity OP…nursery is good for her and preparing her for school, ignore the dickheads

Try a bed tent. Makes bedtime exciting and crucially blocks out all the light (get a blackout one with curtains!).

Saying everyone is on 'the spectrum' does minimise ADHD and Autism... plus it's factually inaccurate.

In terms of sleep, turn off all screens a couple of hours before bed and trial different types of sensory input before settling.

Warm baths and soothing music doesn't work for all children. Some benefit from heavy work, firm touch (a weighted teddy or gentle massage), or rocking/swaying actions (you can get toys for this) etc.

We accidentally discovered that my two year old settles far easier if we let him jump from a chair onto our bed a few times before his story... I'm sure there's a term for this kind of activity but I can't for the life of me remember it.

If she seems well rested in the morning she may just not need as much sleep as others her age.

My 2.5 year old rarely goes to sleep before 10, so my advice is worth nothing. But why is it you every night?
It was me every night from birth till about 3 weeks ago when DD suddenly decided dad is fine too and wow, what a massive difference to my stress levels!
You say she’s a mummy’s girl but can your partner do bedtime for a bit?

Can we just stop with this 'everyone's somewhere on the spectrum/a spectrum'.

It is offensive and diminishes the reality of autism and ADHD. They're brain structures, not simply behaviours or feelings.

Take this example:
there are two people who feel sick. Both are uncomfortable and struggling from the sickness, both equally valid experiences. But they're not both pregnant. One of them is, and the other has a sickness bug. See how important the root cause is? So it is incorrect to say that 'we're all on a spectrum somewhere' just because every human experiences overwhelm sometimes, or likes things organised sometimes. The behaviours and traits aren't actually the relevant things; the brain structure is. Saying 'we're all on the spectrum' is disrespectful and incorrect.

We plan to re do her room before she starts school. So fingers crossed.

I'll start by saying my DD has ADHD.

I don't think you can get assessed for ADHD until age 6 so regardless of all the back and forth above about labels and spectrums, this would be something to consider over the next couple of years. Though given the long waiting lists it might be good to start to at least look into it sooner rather than later (even if just to rule it out for now).

What I wanted to say was that my DD resists bed time and sleep and always has. Never napped unless fell asleep in car or buggy - literally never slept in her cot in the day, absolutely resisted all efforts.
After a very long time spent trying all sorts of suggestions and trying to work out why she found bedtime so difficult we concluded that she doesn't know why, so she can't tell us why she doesn't want to get ready for bed and will try any strategy to avoid it.

With ADHD we know she finds it hard to switch off, but it's more than that.

What we have understood after all this, is that she just needs one of us there with her all or most of the time, until she falls asleep, and she needs this in order to feel safe enough to fall asleep. It's not her messing us about, demanding more attention, it's not that she is over or under tired, or hasn't seen enough of us. It's simply that she needs felt safety and a calm nervous system to help her wind down.

Just something else to consider if all else has failed.

It's hard getting no evening but it's much better now we have accepted that and we're not trying to fight it.

Hope you find something more straightforward that works!

Ps. You also asked about eating - DD has always been a bit funny with food, but she does eat enough and used to eat most things at nursery, so I haven't had too many concerns. She does prefer to snack rather than big meal, she does like certain textures over others, she's never been big on bread, potatoes, rice, pasta so carbs can be hard to get into her. It's worth thinking about the eating and sleeping issues together if you do decide to look into ND or sensory stuff.

Yeah my husband does bed times we take it in turn but ultimately I’m the one who gets her to sleep, if she’s up and down it’s me she wants to soothe her. I spend more time with her at bed time whereas my husband is a story and then lights out kinda guy.

I have had similar sleep issues with my DD over the years. I find that it comes in phases - your DD might just be having a growth spurt and her brain is doing a lot of changing at the moment. The sleep goes to shit for a while and then once the spurt has finished it settles back down again. I know its hard whilst its happening but try and ride it out.

My 4 yr old ended up needing a phase of 6.30pm bedtimes for a while - she would get into phases of being super overtired / hyper and a period of much earlier bedtimes helped, even though it sounds counter intuitive.

I would give her stuff she could do in bed on bad nights e.g. paper and crayons, or a magna-doodle, or picture books to look through. I gave her some binoculars so she could look out of the window on summer nights; she liked doing that.

Sometimes I'd have a chat with her after I'd done her bedtime story - just let her tell me anything she wanted about her day and really try and listen and let her get all her thoughts out, and have a detailed conversation with her - that seemed to help her get off to sleep sometimes. Otherwise she'd be in and out of bed after her story saying "I just remembered something I need to tell you". Try and pre-empt that and have a big chat first!

Poland is closer. Just saying 😇

This is wonderful.

to OP, now we know your routine better I don’t think anyone thinks you’re not spending enough time with your daughter.

some of the advice on this thread is great

We had a very similar situation when ours was 3. The thing that worked for us was a banana 30 mins before bed & then very strict instructions that it was now bedtime and to stay in bed. It took a while. Every time he got up, was taken gently but firmly back. We had a few tantrums at first but a few weeks in all was good. It took a lot of persistence and repetition. Once he started staying in the bed he fell asleep out of sheer boredom & a new pattern was established. He’s now 18 & sleeps for England!

Try a big bath before bed? Lots of people will say its too much childcare etc but our dd had the same and slept at 7:30…she has other challenges though like not eating anything and endlessly arguing every single word i say 🤭

what time does she wake up?

My daughter has always been like this (she does actually have adhd), so occasionally takes prescribed melatonin to help her catch up on sleep if we've had a particularly bad run. Some things that helped when she was younger - starting the day earlier and outside - a 7am trip to the park or leaving for the school run early and going the long way really helped the end of day. a weighted blanket was also helpful, as was me/dh staying and pottering upstairs once weve put her to bed - that issue of us being downstairs and feeling shes missing out was evident! In the end we just left her be, she will still sit up for hours reading, making beads, drawing etc but her brains relaxing and it takes the pressure out of it which can make it worse. She doesn't need as much sleep as her siblings but she definitely doesn't get enough.

my dd1 didn’t need more than 10 hours sleep by that age so 9pm until 7am but often more like 9.5 hours. Her younger sister however could sleep and sleep, still can grown up. We all differ

My 14yr old has always been hard to get to bed, even as a baby I really struggled getting him in to bed unlike his sister who was a dream to get to bed. He's still hard to get to bed and at 14yrs has a much later bedtime than I would like him to have but its a battle to get in to bed earlier.
Does she have a nap at nursery? Also do you think you have made bedtime in to such a big thing its almost as if she is now anticipating it and mentally fighting it? What does her bedtime routine involve because I also think that can be overstimulating too if it takes to long.

What works for us is a chat with the lights out. DD has to process her day and thoughts before she can sleep. Then she listens to music on her Echo (audio books were too engaging and she stayed awake to listen). It's often the same song on repeat or an album on repeat. We stay for a little while to make sure she's said everything she needs to, and then leave her to go to sleep with the music. It seems to take a while, until 8.30 or 9.

Absolutely awful advice. Just hoping she will crash on the sofa is not a solution.

Co sleeping? You'll still have her in your bed when shes 11 and she will never settle unless you're with her. Its ridiculous to expect an adult to have a kids bedtime or a kid have an adults bedtime.

ranges massively- on a nursery day has to be woken around 7:30/8 on a non nursery she might come into our room at 5 am, today Sunday morning she’s still in bed….. 😆

I don’t believe in having my child on our bed so don’t worry, plus she wouldn’t just fall asleep on the couch I wish, but I want her in her own bed and own room.