For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

I don't think you are wrong to refuse to change the child. However, as a TA with students post 18 to even older, I am often left sorting out the impact of TAs and teachers form earlier in their educational journey, having ignored or dismissed clear SEN needs, leaving them with inappropriate support throughout their schooling. It keeps the adult ed sector running I guess, but I do despair when a TA who wants to be a teacher says they didn't expect to help a child of X age with Y task and then goes "no SEN". Does it not occur to you that when a child is way behind where you expect, that is often the first sign of SEN/disability/learning difficulty?!

Lol but what are you going to do in the meantime whilst working with the parents?

Yep.

There is no 'sorting' it for my son. He will be bowel incontinent forever as his bowel doesn't work correctly.

He's on medication and is under a dietician with a restricted diet to help manage it and it has improved from what it was but he still needs changing at school multiple times a day.

I remember when my eldest daughter started pre school back in the late 90s that all children had to be out of nappies. I too wonder why many children aren't toilet trained by the time they start reception at 4/5.

Better tell the prison wardens that too

I had a nephew who used to poo himself at that age. No SEN. No medical condition. But it started happening after his parents split up and seemed to be a stress response to that. Parents were advised to not make a big deal about it and be matter of fact, but make sure he had plenty of attention and reassurance about his place in both their lives. Eventually he stopped and is now a gregarious, happy and successful university student.

I don't know what happened at school, but at home he mainly cleaned up himself but with a little help from an adult, checking everything was clean and making sure dirty pants (and trousers if necessary) didn't get poo all over the bathroom and got cleaned or put in a sealed bag until they could be. He didn't wear a nappy, though. I would imagine that would make things messier as they are generally fairly tight and would make it smear?

I think it's reasonable to refuse until you receive training, and it's reasonable for the teacher to talk with the parents about what's going on, how much he can do himself, and how they can support the boy to get to a place where he's using the loo. But the boy needs to be supported during his day at school. Someone at the school needs to change him or help him change. And once you're a teacher you need to be prepared to work out how to make sure your students needs are met. A blanket refusal is not in keeping with the flexibility required from someone in that role.

Try telling that to my head teacher. I’d be straight out of a job.

Are they allowed to go to the toilet when they need to go, or are they made to wait until playtime?

I only ask because when I was very young I remember being made to wait and I would wet myself, despite being fully trained and never having wet the bed.

I trained to be a TA, then trained to be an HLTA. I was trained as a TEACHING assistant running literacy interventions, not a nursery nurse. Once in Y1 I was asked to deal with a boy who had soiled himself because he didn’t want to stop using a computer. I refused as it was not in my job description. I hadn’t wiped my own son’s bum since he was just over two. I was happy to find clean clothes and a plastic bag from the storeroom for children that had wet themselves and stand outside the toilet while they sorted themselves out but that’s as far as it went. Vomit was up to the caretaker to deal with.

All the people on this thread suggesting that TAs and teachers should clean up soiled children daily have me staggered. It says an incredible lot about what people now think about education. This is absolutely not their job.
I’d love to see other professions, such as civil servants expected to clean up poo.
Teaching is a job (degree level) like any other- not a vocation that means (women) end up being basic childcare and then are shamed if they’re not ‘caring’ enough

I think there are more children struggling with toilet training at the moment.

Mine was in that situation at the age that the OP is talking about.

We went through hell in the hands of the school system and he finally had a nervous breakdown at 13 and dropped out.

He finally got an EHCP at 14.

I understand that the OP doesn't like it, but it's not a whole lot of fun for the kids or the family either unfortunately.

It would be a really good idea for the OP to go to the SEN forum on MN and read a bit there. Life is very very hard for some kids who are notionally able to attend mainstream school.

Realise not point of your post but that poor child. Really sad to read about number of kids having accidents at school. My daughter is just over 3 and is one of few still having occasional accidents in her nursery and we’re all working really hard to try to overcome this.

No SEN just means no diagnosed SEN, especially at 6. And even if no SEN is at play, it's not the child's fault.

Yes, teachers and parents should be looking into why this is happening. But if they need help in the meantime, they need help.

You are posting about small children who are likely to be feeling embarrassed, worried, and uncomfortable. If your first reaction is to be judgmental and grossed out instead of worried for their comfort, I'd rethink working in a primary school.

Like Midwives? Or do they call the cleaners in when a mum pushes a poo out because it's not their job to clean?

And??
Two wrongs don't make a right.

in this day and age, you can’t be too careful . You did the right thing. Only takes one well meaning action, and your career could be ruined.

The only way for my son to receive an education is if he is supported with his medical needs which includes bowel incontinence.

He has as much right to an education as any other child.

Ridiculous comment. Midwives give intimate care. Teachers and TAs are there to teach.

Pooing is a normal part of many births though.

6 with no SEN is old to be having accidents.

Our NHS is on it's knees so getting any health care for your DCs needs is a battle. If you visit a school you will see that the majority of classes have a DC with very obvious SEN needs. The LA and government have decided that these DC should be in mainstream school. The DC are entitled by law to a full time education. This is all pretty obvious to someone going through teacher training, so they should understand that this will likely at some point in their career form part of their role.

I have a degree too. I would still clean up poo when needed.

So what do you think is the reason for it?

All staff have a basic safeguarding responsibility. Saying it's not my job is not a valid legal defence if a child suffers due to inaction.

Refusing to act in these circumstances would lead to serious professional and legal consequences. As they should. Leaving a child soiled is a massive failure - personally, legally and morally.

You need to see the school's policy that determines what happens in these situations OP. There will be one.

Young children need to be cared for. Education for young children involves a significant degree of childcare and supervision - you can't really separate these, unless schools allowed parents to sit in and supervise and care for their own children, which they don't.

It is completely unrealistic to try to separate "education" from "childcare" when dealing with primary age children. Teachers are doing childcare for these children alongside educating them by virtue of the fact that they're in sole charge of children who require constant care and supervision.

If school is not childcare, then who exactly is doing the childcare for kids while they're at school?