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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For refusing to change a 6 year old?

1000 replies

Bernie6678 · 02/07/2025 19:48

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:46

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:40

@Morgenrot25
I can't find the post where you said "They're sent to the bathroom, with their clean clothes and instructed to start changing and cleaning themselves. Most 6 year olds should manage that just fine. Teaching staff member waits outside."

It's funny because that counts as intimate care at our school. It is the last the step of progress. But some children, aged 6 or even older, are not ready for this step. They may need an adult to verbally guide them through the steps, they may need an adult to organize their clothes or do up buttons, they may need an adult to supervise wiping, they may need an adult to wipe, or put clothes on, or they may be in nappies. This is developmentally appropriate.

Now, you may say that this is different to what the OP is talking about, and you might be right, but neither of us really know. I totally support OP's right to refuse to support with intimate care.

I support the OP too.
Standing outside is possibly reasonable.
Actually being expected to help isn't.
OP could say no to even just standing outside though.

starrynight009 · 03/07/2025 07:46

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:29

Yes most people do but we draw the line at cleaning up shit? Wouldn't you? I drew the line when my manager tried to make me clean the coffee machine that I never use. HTH.

Edited

Well I've worked in a nursery, been a TA and been a specials needs nanny. I do now work in an office but no, it wouldn't bother me. Either you're called to work with children and all it entails or you're not. It's just poo at the end of the day and they're young children. People really are making mountains out of molehills here.

Violinist64 · 03/07/2025 07:48

FMLLLLL · 03/07/2025 07:38

So disabled children are a drain on the country, what a lovely attitude.

Where did l say that? If you must know, l have an autistic adult son, whose needs were significant enough for him to be educated in a special school. He took longer to be dry than my other two children but was still dry day and night just before his third birthday. Bowel training was more difficult as, in his autistic mind, he felt he had to "go" at the same time each day and would soil his pants if the urge came at the "wrong" time of day until he was eight. Even so, he never did this at school, only at home. Toilet training is hard work - it is called training for a reason - but it is ultimately the parents' responsibility and should be done years before starting school unless there are physical or extreme learning disabilities.

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:48

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:44

This one @ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot its a very sad read

I did find and I responded by editing my previous post :)

Very sad , you're right. More sadly, I don't find it surprising.

AnnoyedAsAllHeck · 03/07/2025 07:49

IanStirlingrocks · 02/07/2025 20:46

@Dweetfidilove

Are schools admitting children who routinely require several changes per day /week?

Yes because children with continence issues are entitled to an education too.

Are they employing people for these jobs or are teachers expected to do this too?

There’s not enough money in the school budget to employ specific health care assistants although some special schools do

If a child has care needs as part of their education plan, surely someone is assigned to provide this, and not just teachers and TAs 'taking turns'.

Toileting needs alone is NOWHERE NEAR the threshold for requiring an EHCP or additional funding.

If it's down to teachers and TAs who are assigned to many pupils, are teachers available for consistent teaching/guiding learning? Are the TAs actually available to support the learning of the pupils they're meant to support?
It seems a lot is expected of teachers of TAs outside their actual remit.

Welcome to education in 2025!!

No wonder it is so difficult to keep teachers. They don't get paid enough to have to put up with the crap on top of the crap they already have to deal with daily.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:50

starrynight009 · 03/07/2025 07:46

Well I've worked in a nursery, been a TA and been a specials needs nanny. I do now work in an office but no, it wouldn't bother me. Either you're called to work with children and all it entails or you're not. It's just poo at the end of the day and they're young children. People really are making mountains out of molehills here.

But you've chosen jobs where you know that's part of the job if you worked in a nursery and a nanny. Don't get me wrong, all jobs are important and it's great some people can do them, but we all can't and don't necessarily want to. I'm truly blown away that you don't think it's a big deal. Also, as a parent, aunt and a member of society I want schools to focus on education.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:50

AnnoyedAsAllHeck · 03/07/2025 07:49

No wonder it is so difficult to keep teachers. They don't get paid enough to have to put up with the crap on top of the crap they already have to deal with daily.

💯

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:53

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:41

If it's due to their lack of parenting, you'd hope that they'd be putting their most important role as a parent and the well-being of their child before their career. They also should have toilet trained long before their child has started school. I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood your post.

But it may not be due to their lack of parenting, for many of these kids it not be clear why at 6 it is happening.

I'm a nurse, I'm strictly not allowed my phone at work, and often I can't leave the ward because I'm the only nurse there (different thread). It would take a while to reach me via the ward office, and then if I was called to change my child I might not be able to leave immediately.

My child is toilet trained, but there will be parents who aren't at fault for their child's toileting issues who can't immediately leave work, or who work 90 minutes away from the school. Logistically what are they supposed to do?

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:54

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:53

But it may not be due to their lack of parenting, for many of these kids it not be clear why at 6 it is happening.

I'm a nurse, I'm strictly not allowed my phone at work, and often I can't leave the ward because I'm the only nurse there (different thread). It would take a while to reach me via the ward office, and then if I was called to change my child I might not be able to leave immediately.

My child is toilet trained, but there will be parents who aren't at fault for their child's toileting issues who can't immediately leave work, or who work 90 minutes away from the school. Logistically what are they supposed to do?

Does your child have another parent?
What happens if there's a medical emergency?

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:55

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:54

Does your child have another parent?
What happens if there's a medical emergency?

Edited

He works 90 minutes away.

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:58

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:54

Does your child have another parent?
What happens if there's a medical emergency?

Edited

You've just added about in an emergency. In an emergency I still might not be able to leave immediately, I would need to find another nurse from another ward and hand over to them if I was working alone.

My child isn't incontinent, but there will be parents in my position. I have colleagues who are single parents of children with SEN.

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:59

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:46

I support the OP too.
Standing outside is possibly reasonable.
Actually being expected to help isn't.
OP could say no to even just standing outside though.

I think refusing to stand outside a bathroom would be pushing it, though I'm not sure - it would depend her contract.

It should always be the minimum support possible for the required outcome, to preserve dignity. If they can do it themselves, they should.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:59

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:55

He works 90 minutes away.

So, what happens if there's a medical emergency?
Also, with all due respect, it's not the school staff's issue that he chose to be so unreachable for his child.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 08:00

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:59

I think refusing to stand outside a bathroom would be pushing it, though I'm not sure - it would depend her contract.

It should always be the minimum support possible for the required outcome, to preserve dignity. If they can do it themselves, they should.

Agreed.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 08:01

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:58

You've just added about in an emergency. In an emergency I still might not be able to leave immediately, I would need to find another nurse from another ward and hand over to them if I was working alone.

My child isn't incontinent, but there will be parents in my position. I have colleagues who are single parents of children with SEN.

And your husband?

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 08:03

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 08:01

And your husband?

I've told you he is 90 minutes away. But what if like my colleagues I was a single parent?

Kirbert2 · 03/07/2025 08:04

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:58

You've just added about in an emergency. In an emergency I still might not be able to leave immediately, I would need to find another nurse from another ward and hand over to them if I was working alone.

My child isn't incontinent, but there will be parents in my position. I have colleagues who are single parents of children with SEN.

One of the reasons why at least one parent usually ends up either losing their job or having to quit, it just becomes impossible managing a child with disability/SEN etc and working too.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 08:04

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:41

So I read your reply to that.

Sadly, social services wouldn't be interested. We could probably get lower level services involved with the family who went back to nappies. They would most likely arrange a parenting course and not much more. The parents would most likely not engage well, given their parenting efforts up until now. So we would be looking at building a rapport with the family and having regular meetings about toilet training, both supporting them and challenging them. I would also be organizing a home visit. If they are that lazy around toileting what else is wrong? It is likely that there is evidence of other neglect.

If the child was previously put of nappies, then I would be telling the parents that he must be sent to school in pants and that we would deal with any accidents.

Edited

OK so you're exactly part of the problem if you know a parent has actively put their child back in nappies and say that you'll deal with the accidents. You are enabling poor parenting to the detriment of the children you should be advocating for which is tragic.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 08:05

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 08:03

I've told you he is 90 minutes away. But what if like my colleagues I was a single parent?

It's not the fault of the teaching staff that you've both made yourself inaccessible though. 🫣

perpetualplatespinning · 03/07/2025 08:06

It is covered by the Equality Act. That applies whether there is a diagnosis or not.

It is also covered by the statutory guidance on supporting pupils at school with medical conditions I linked to earlier in the thread. This guidance explicitly mentions toileting and it being unacceptable to require parents to attend school to change DC or make them feel like they have to attend. It applies to those with a diagnosis and those without and applies to most types of schools (e.g. it isn’t statutory guidance for independent schools).

For most types of schools (e.g. it doesn’t include independent schools), section 100 of the Children and Families Act 2014 places a duty on the school’s governing body/proprietors/management committees to make arrangements for supporting pupils at school with medical conditions. This includes toileting needs.

suburburban · 03/07/2025 08:08

Theamin · 03/07/2025 00:00

This strength of character will stand you in good stead in the future.

Hopefully it will get her fired or prosecuted. Fingers crossed...

No way

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 08:10

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 08:04

OK so you're exactly part of the problem if you know a parent has actively put their child back in nappies and say that you'll deal with the accidents. You are enabling poor parenting to the detriment of the children you should be advocating for which is tragic.

I'm not sure whether you read correctly. I would not be allowing the child to come to school in nappies. If they have an accident and pants and trousers need changing, i would ensure that he is given a suitable level of support - which probably just means giving him his change of clothes.

I'm doing what is required by law by ensuring he isn't left in wet clothing.

What would you do?

Ilovechocolatelimesandsherbertlemons · 03/07/2025 08:12

ClairDeLaLune · 02/07/2025 23:58

Good for you OP to be confident and assertive enough at your young age to put boundaries in place and stick to them. This strength of character will stand you in good stead in the future.

The parents should be called to the school to change the child. Every single time. It’s not the teacher’s job either.

I wouldn't have even employed her. And if she is hoping for a reference to do teacher training it's not a good look.

I agree that it is not right that so many more children are coming in to school not potty trained, it is an issue that needs addressing with parents by health visitors. But that is not the child's fault.
Children of 6, in my very long teaching experience, rarely soil themselves unless I'll or have an emotional or physical problem as yet undiagnosed. You cannot exclude a child for this, it is blaming the child for something beyond their control. Their safe place may be the school. Teaching assistants are employed to support the teacher so in this situation, until a cause can be found, it will be the TAs job to support. I would have had the school continence nurse in to "train" the TA.
It's obviously not ideal, but it is her job. If she refuses to carry out a reasonable request and is causing extra work throughout the school for others she can be put on disciplinary. The dignity and well-being of the child is paramount.
Parents may be working many miles away and unable to reach school. You can't keep dragging them out of work.
What needs to happen is meetings to be held with parents and LA to determine causes and next steps. It doesn't mean that no one cares for the child.
And to suggest that the HT spends her time being a highly paid carer is ridiculous. They are there to manage the school and the curriculum. I don't suppose the OP can substitute her job.

Hashbrownwithcheese · 03/07/2025 08:12

perpetualplatespinning · 03/07/2025 08:06

It is covered by the Equality Act. That applies whether there is a diagnosis or not.

It is also covered by the statutory guidance on supporting pupils at school with medical conditions I linked to earlier in the thread. This guidance explicitly mentions toileting and it being unacceptable to require parents to attend school to change DC or make them feel like they have to attend. It applies to those with a diagnosis and those without and applies to most types of schools (e.g. it isn’t statutory guidance for independent schools).

For most types of schools (e.g. it doesn’t include independent schools), section 100 of the Children and Families Act 2014 places a duty on the school’s governing body/proprietors/management committees to make arrangements for supporting pupils at school with medical conditions. This includes toileting needs.

This.

It doesn't matter that many on here do not understand the backlogs for diagnosis with disabled people. Or that they believe disabled people should not be entitled to an education. Or that every child should have an unemployed parent living within the school grounds. The government and law disagree.

80smonster · 03/07/2025 08:13

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:19

'Summoning' 🫣

Look, I was never under the assumption that TA work is glamorous or hygienic, that’s the rub with small kids. If one doesn’t like it they should do something else! I honestly don’t give a shit if OP will or won’t wipe shitty arses, but minimum wage and cleaning up revolting mess kind of goes hand in hand, those who are pretending it doesn’t are fantasists.

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