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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For refusing to change a 6 year old?

1000 replies

Bernie6678 · 02/07/2025 19:48

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:21

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:08

Then you'd probably also ensure a lot less applications for said roles.

Yes it's true, but they can fulfill the job we need them to do, and we are being open and honest about it.

We have staff members who cannot do intimate care or who do not want to, but we also need some staff members that can and will. Or else we will be breaking the equalities act. Which is a legal requirement, despite PP's protestations

olympicsrock · 03/07/2025 07:22

Hodgemollar · 02/07/2025 20:31

How on earth is it the parents responsibility if a child soils themselves outside of the home??
People aww quick to parrot that there are no issues with this child but the fact that a 6 year old is soiling themselves regularly would suggest otherwise.

As a parent your children are ALWAYS your responsibility!

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:23

Boddica2000 · 03/07/2025 07:12

Nope, you're trying to deflect away from the actual discussion about the OP with increasingly irrelevant straw man fables.

And you've been told you're wrong about the law - because you are. So that's that, really.

Edited

I mean, you've repeatedly claimed that were wrong about the law. Please provide evidence

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:25

JustAnotherTeacherHere · 03/07/2025 07:20

The problem with people discussing this is that it becomes very polarised.

Of course, children with SEND deserve to be educated and it would be discriminatory to suggest that their disabilities/needs should prevent them from an education.

But.

Not every child who enters mainstream school in nappies has SEND. Yes, sometimes additional needs won't have yet been diagnosed but there are usually clear signs in other areas that there is something else going on, some children have physical disabilities, some children might only have issues in this area. And some childen really do just have poor parents.

We had 6 childen start school in Recpetion this year in nappies. 60 children in the year group so 10%. Four of them were toilet trained by the October half term break by the teacher/TA (so not SEND related). The remaining two had obvious additional needs and will likely have lifelong issues in this area or not be toilet trained until significantly older at least.

Of the four who were toilet trained, one returned after half term in nappies again because the parents said it was 'easier' for them.

Wow. So what happens in these cases? The children who were obviously just not toilet trained what are the situations there? This information should be gathered and fed back, I'm not sure to who but honestly the child who has come back in nappies is disgusting and those parents need to be reported to social services.

Theamin · 03/07/2025 07:25

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:12

They're sent to the bathroom, with their clean clothes and instructed to start changing and cleaning themselves. Most 6 year olds should manage that just fine. Teaching staff member waits outside.
Are you living in a parallel universe or something?

I'm not living in your world, based heavily on assumptions.

Most 6 year olds is not all. I'm trying to ascertain who you think should change a child if they can't do it themselves. Continuing to say the parents need to come in is dodging the answer.

If it's in nobody's job description then everyone can refuse to do it (apparently).

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:26

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:21

Yes it's true, but they can fulfill the job we need them to do, and we are being open and honest about it.

We have staff members who cannot do intimate care or who do not want to, but we also need some staff members that can and will. Or else we will be breaking the equalities act. Which is a legal requirement, despite PP's protestations

It's absolutely disgusting that someone employed to teach or to assist teaching is being expected to do this though.

starrynight009 · 03/07/2025 07:26

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:04

Actually, the school is required to provide intimate care, but cannot require a staff member to support with intimate care. They absolutely can't sack someone for refusing, unless it is in their job description and that person has agreed.

Doesn't everyone have "and any other duties required of you" in their job descriptions now days?

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:27

Theamin · 03/07/2025 07:25

I'm not living in your world, based heavily on assumptions.

Most 6 year olds is not all. I'm trying to ascertain who you think should change a child if they can't do it themselves. Continuing to say the parents need to come in is dodging the answer.

If it's in nobody's job description then everyone can refuse to do it (apparently).

Stop taking every comment personally.

Theamin · 03/07/2025 07:28

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:27

Stop taking every comment personally.

Why on earth is it personal? It's just logic.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:28

starrynight009 · 03/07/2025 07:26

Doesn't everyone have "and any other duties required of you" in their job descriptions now days?

Personal care is actually quite a specific role and requires training, not just an add on.

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:28

Boddica2000 · 03/07/2025 07:18

The complete insanity of some of the posters here never fails to amaze me. Imagine thinking that you can FORCE a minimum wage worker to clean up shit and piss she has not agreed to clean up, is not her job to clean and with zero training and no safeguarding in place.

Imagine pretending that the school calling parents to come and deal with their OWN CHILDREN's issues is in any way abnormal or strange or illegal 😂😅😀

What a bunch of unpleasant bullies the "I will force you to wipe my kid's arse and deal with their piss and shit covered clothes if it's the last thing I do" brigade are.

So glad the OP has the sense to say no to this crap (no pun intended).

I'm off, tired of repeating the facts over and over and over and honestly I do have things to do.

Please do flounce off.

I support children to change children regularly in my role as senco at a mainstream school. Because I'm not holier than thou and because no child deserves to sit in soiled pants.

I also challenge parents who need to step up with parenting.

If a staff member who did not have intimate care on their job description refused to support, I would accept that and allocate them appropriately. I would hire appropriate people to support in classes where personal care is needed.

I know the law, and am not going to change our policies and procedures because you claim they're detrimental or unnecessary. I would not want to work in a school that did not put the children first.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:29

starrynight009 · 03/07/2025 07:26

Doesn't everyone have "and any other duties required of you" in their job descriptions now days?

Yes most people do but we draw the line at cleaning up shit? Wouldn't you? I drew the line when my manager tried to make me clean the coffee machine that I never use. HTH.

Violinist64 · 03/07/2025 07:29

Well said. I agree with people who said our children had to be toilet trained to be accepted into playgroup or nursery in the nineties. It's true and was a good thing. Of course, there have always been the occasional accidents and nursery and reception teachers would have spare underwear to hand for this purpose but the emphasis is on the word occasional. No decent person minds cleaning up an occasional puddle or vomit even though it is not pleasant being small children can't help the odd accident. This is not what is happening here. This is a sìx year old who is regularly soiling himself. Whether or not he has special needs, it would appear that his parents have abdicated their responsibility both to the child - by not properly toilet training him - and the school. I also object to the person who wrote about lower socioeconomic groups. It is parents from more affluent families who have bought into toilet training "readiness." The numbers of children who are not ready for school - and I agree that four is too young for most children - is rising exponentially. It is not solely because of the rise of special needs but because far too many parents do not teach their children the basics. When I started school, in September 1969, there were nearly forty children in my class, two of whom had significant special needs and one teacher with no TAs. The expectations were that we could all dress and undress ourselves, button or zip our coats, listen to instructions, hold a pencil, brush our teeth, hold a knife and fork properly and, yes, use the toilet; the occasional accident notwithstanding. School dinners offered no choice and we had china plates and bowls and proper glasses for water. The fact that children from all different backgrounds could do this then and so many seemingly cannot now must have a common denominator somewhere.

Kirbert2 · 03/07/2025 07:32

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:18

Of course you and he were happy.
The named staff quite possibly, and understandably, less so.

Edited

Possibly, I'll obviously never know how they truly feel about it.

nocturnalstar · 03/07/2025 07:33

Well I wouldn't want you as my TA.

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:33

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:26

It's absolutely disgusting that someone employed to teach or to assist teaching is being expected to do this though.

If you met the children, I really think that you wouldn't feel that way. Children with additional needs struggle with toileting for many reasons: sensory, physical, communication, understanding, attention span...

It is not disgusting to help them. It is part of their education. As well as assisting them to change, the staff members will be working on independence steps - requesting verbally or non-verbally, doing up buttons, cooperating with nappy changes, whatever level they are at.

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:36

There are going to be parents who are neglectful and haven't bothered, and there are going to be children with emerging SEN or medical needs. There will also be a very rare few who just have accidents at 6.

If it is neglect this should be tackled by the school (and potentially children's services), and if there's a need for support/referrals this should be taken forward. But neither of these things will solve the immediate issue of a child being soiled and needing help.

I would feel awful for any parents who had tried to toilet train their child, for whatever reason it wasn't going well, and they then had to drop everything and leave work to change their child. Lots of people aren't within minutes of their child's school and this could lose someone their career.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:37

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:33

If you met the children, I really think that you wouldn't feel that way. Children with additional needs struggle with toileting for many reasons: sensory, physical, communication, understanding, attention span...

It is not disgusting to help them. It is part of their education. As well as assisting them to change, the staff members will be working on independence steps - requesting verbally or non-verbally, doing up buttons, cooperating with nappy changes, whatever level they are at.

What are your views on @
JustAnotherTeacherHere post? How would this be managed and dealt with?

FMLLLLL · 03/07/2025 07:38

Yoodle50 · 03/07/2025 01:45

The thing is the OP is responsible of course she is but ultimately the school is negligent and the parents even more so and whilst the legislation ultimately puts the responsibility on the parent where that fails the school has higher responsibility to make sure that child is looked after and so my biggest point is the schools should be far more robust in making reports to the local authority for the parents failing

So disabled children are a drain on the country, what a lovely attitude.

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:39

Violinist64 · 03/07/2025 07:29

Well said. I agree with people who said our children had to be toilet trained to be accepted into playgroup or nursery in the nineties. It's true and was a good thing. Of course, there have always been the occasional accidents and nursery and reception teachers would have spare underwear to hand for this purpose but the emphasis is on the word occasional. No decent person minds cleaning up an occasional puddle or vomit even though it is not pleasant being small children can't help the odd accident. This is not what is happening here. This is a sìx year old who is regularly soiling himself. Whether or not he has special needs, it would appear that his parents have abdicated their responsibility both to the child - by not properly toilet training him - and the school. I also object to the person who wrote about lower socioeconomic groups. It is parents from more affluent families who have bought into toilet training "readiness." The numbers of children who are not ready for school - and I agree that four is too young for most children - is rising exponentially. It is not solely because of the rise of special needs but because far too many parents do not teach their children the basics. When I started school, in September 1969, there were nearly forty children in my class, two of whom had significant special needs and one teacher with no TAs. The expectations were that we could all dress and undress ourselves, button or zip our coats, listen to instructions, hold a pencil, brush our teeth, hold a knife and fork properly and, yes, use the toilet; the occasional accident notwithstanding. School dinners offered no choice and we had china plates and bowls and proper glasses for water. The fact that children from all different backgrounds could do this then and so many seemingly cannot now must have a common denominator somewhere.

So if your child has SEN are you not allowed to work in case your child has an accident and you need to attend school?

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:40

@Morgenrot25
I can't find the post where you said "They're sent to the bathroom, with their clean clothes and instructed to start changing and cleaning themselves. Most 6 year olds should manage that just fine. Teaching staff member waits outside."

It's funny because that counts as intimate care at our school. It is the last the step of progress. But some children, aged 6 or even older, are not ready for this step. They may need an adult to verbally guide them through the steps, they may need an adult to organize their clothes or do up buttons, they may need an adult to supervise wiping, they may need an adult to wipe, or put clothes on, or they may be in nappies. This is developmentally appropriate.

Now, you may say that this is different to what the OP is talking about, and you might be right, but neither of us really know. I totally support OP's right to refuse to support with intimate care.

ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot · 03/07/2025 07:41

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:37

What are your views on @
JustAnotherTeacherHere post? How would this be managed and dealt with?

So I read your reply to that.

Sadly, social services wouldn't be interested. We could probably get lower level services involved with the family who went back to nappies. They would most likely arrange a parenting course and not much more. The parents would most likely not engage well, given their parenting efforts up until now. So we would be looking at building a rapport with the family and having regular meetings about toilet training, both supporting them and challenging them. I would also be organizing a home visit. If they are that lazy around toileting what else is wrong? It is likely that there is evidence of other neglect.

If the child was previously put of nappies, then I would be telling the parents that he must be sent to school in pants and that we would deal with any accidents.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:41

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:36

There are going to be parents who are neglectful and haven't bothered, and there are going to be children with emerging SEN or medical needs. There will also be a very rare few who just have accidents at 6.

If it is neglect this should be tackled by the school (and potentially children's services), and if there's a need for support/referrals this should be taken forward. But neither of these things will solve the immediate issue of a child being soiled and needing help.

I would feel awful for any parents who had tried to toilet train their child, for whatever reason it wasn't going well, and they then had to drop everything and leave work to change their child. Lots of people aren't within minutes of their child's school and this could lose someone their career.

If it's due to their lack of parenting, you'd hope that they'd be putting their most important role as a parent and the well-being of their child before their career. They also should have toilet trained long before their child has started school. I apologise in advance if I have misunderstood your post.

Morgenrot25 · 03/07/2025 07:43

ADreamIsAWishYourArseMakes · 03/07/2025 07:36

There are going to be parents who are neglectful and haven't bothered, and there are going to be children with emerging SEN or medical needs. There will also be a very rare few who just have accidents at 6.

If it is neglect this should be tackled by the school (and potentially children's services), and if there's a need for support/referrals this should be taken forward. But neither of these things will solve the immediate issue of a child being soiled and needing help.

I would feel awful for any parents who had tried to toilet train their child, for whatever reason it wasn't going well, and they then had to drop everything and leave work to change their child. Lots of people aren't within minutes of their child's school and this could lose someone their career.

No, I'd still feel that way.
Edit - managef to quote wrong post.
I was actually trying to reply to the one that said I'd feel differently if I met tje kids.

NeedZzzzzssss · 03/07/2025 07:44

JustAnotherTeacherHere · 03/07/2025 07:20

The problem with people discussing this is that it becomes very polarised.

Of course, children with SEND deserve to be educated and it would be discriminatory to suggest that their disabilities/needs should prevent them from an education.

But.

Not every child who enters mainstream school in nappies has SEND. Yes, sometimes additional needs won't have yet been diagnosed but there are usually clear signs in other areas that there is something else going on, some children have physical disabilities, some children might only have issues in this area. And some childen really do just have poor parents.

We had 6 childen start school in Recpetion this year in nappies. 60 children in the year group so 10%. Four of them were toilet trained by the October half term break by the teacher/TA (so not SEND related). The remaining two had obvious additional needs and will likely have lifelong issues in this area or not be toilet trained until significantly older at least.

Of the four who were toilet trained, one returned after half term in nappies again because the parents said it was 'easier' for them.

This one @ThesebeautifulthingsthatIvegot its a very sad read

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