For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

It isn’t entitled to expect schools to adhere to the law and statutory guidance.

My child’s complex needs have nothing to do with me not being bothered or not parenting. That is a fact recognised by every professional involved. Thankfully, none are as ignorant as the likes of you.

I don’t need anyone to teach my incontinent child to brush his teeth. We brush his teeth. He will always need help to do that.

Okay, I accept being ignorant if that means I don't want to clean poo everyday. I want to teach which is what I was employed to do.

Says alot about British people, it's totally shameful! Again assuming there isn't something wrong with the child, even so it should be planned for and responsibilities should be understood by the teaching assistants

Provision provided by the CwD team has nothing to do with ‘basic parenting’. You show a complete lack of understanding of the system and legislation.

YANBU. This just wasn't going on when I was at school. Say what you like, but in the absence of SEN, medical needs, or complicated home circumstances which can cause anxiety/accidents, it is lazy af parenting.

I don't think the proportion of SEN has magically increased since the 90's, though of course more children get diagnosed and supported now, as they should.

The vast majority of 6 years are capable of not pooping themselves. It should not be a regular occurrence for children without SEN etc.

Thats because they didnt used to let them start school, which meant that children who were incontinent weren't able to access mainstream education. It was failing children. We have anti discrimination policies now.
If they start school not using the toilet reliably, and its due to parents laziness etc etc, then youd think that in no time, theyd be motivated by the fact all their peers use the toilets, and they would get the hang of it quickly.

If a child isnt motivated by the social norm of the entire rest of the school using the toilet, or doesnt recognise their bodily signals fully, then i would hope that by age 6, if that child has theoretically been in school for a couple of years, then its likely already been flagged.

Working in a school, I was shocked about how little we are allowed to know about the children we work with.

Its also sad, some of the things these kids might be going through.

Do something about what? Are you okay? You're starting to get rather unhinged.

Unfortunately, quite few posters on here think its the schools job to change nappies and teach how to brush their teeth. Quite sad really, these young poor children have parents who don't care about them. Again, excluding sen/medical needs*.

And it’s people like you who let the lazy, half arsed parents off the hook of doing any sort of basic care/development. They count on it.

Nobody is saying to leave the shit-covered child in that state because their Mum or Dad isn’t bothering to answer a call. Clean them up, fine. But after repeated incidents, it should be an exclusion until the parents do their job. One child’s parents’ failure should not impact the other kids in that class.

Of course, the law says one thing so nobody should debate on that. Excellent stance there.

Crikey. This thread is depressing. Little kids have accidents, bigger kids have accidents. Adults have accidents, Elderly people have accidents. When you work with little kids then accidents are the norm. This can be the norm up until 6-8 without SEND for numerous reasons: feeling unwell, anxious or unable to find a toilet, etc
I agree that intimate care training should ideally take place but honestly, if you don't want to help a child who has had an accident, then perhaps this isn't the job for you. I understand that it might be gross etc. but it's part of the job. Lots of people who work in retail etc have to do similar cleaning up bodily fluids etc. when I worked at a cinema at 18 I had to clean up vomit/toilets etc. I wasn't 'trained' just had to do it. You are working in a primary school and want to be a teacher. Honestly, if this kind of thing really bothers you, then kindly, it's not the job for you.

I genuinely do not understand why suddenly there are all these children with these needs, it doesn't make any sense. It simply wasn't the case 10 or even 5 years ago. SEN, medical or otherwise. The number of children seems to be increasing as well as the requirement increasing. Kids who can't do the most basic tasks that most toddlers can do. Something will have to give. Perhaps parents will need to be paid to care for their school aged children at home, maybe schools will need to employ hygine carers. Neglecting everyone else's education means everyone will lose. I really hate to think what things will be like in 10 years.

Yanbu to not want to change them.

Yabu to say no SEN as many/most children won't have a diagnosis by that age, especially not with the current waiting lists.

I've not read the full thread but there's lots of reasons young children may have accidents and need help with toilets. If we are sending them to school at such a young age and they have accidents there should be someone to help if needed. They deserve dignity.

My son had accidents at school in his first year- pee only luckily - and they changed him/helped him change and the teacher made a point of telling him to go to the toilet regularly - as he wasn't asking. When he then developed a fear of toilets he was allowed to take a friend with him.

I think the reason he was having accidents was a lot to do with anxiety due to a difficult time at home ..as well as general being 5. It's not bad parenting.

With poo problems at school it could easily be sensory issues that aren't diagnosed. It will be something if a child is having loads of accidents.

I honestly can't believe the attitudes of some people on this thread. Would you really just leave a child in their own poo for hours?

"I really hate to think what things will be like in 10 years."

In 10 years, they'll still be blaming the teachers rather than accepting their own mistakes and failures in raising their own children.

They wouldn't change the light bulb, they don't interact with children.

You've made a number of mis-quotes and baseless assumptions in your response - please try to read a person's post carefully before responding to it. Disagreeing with someone's actual experience and observations based on that experience is rather silly: You have no basis upon which to critique what I have actually witnessed, because you weren't there.
Other parts of your post have taken a "some" or "many" observation and assumed that the comment refers to ALL children. That is, of course, incorrect.

Sadly you've not helped your position by misquoting or by trying to argue with, or dispute, another person's actual lived experience. And that in turn does not help your child or children like them.

Any child who is not potty trained and cannot control their bowels should not be in mainstream education UNLESS they have a dedicated carer to assist them. It should NOT be the role of a teacher to be cleaning up bodily fluids or dealing with nappies etc. Not only is that not what teachers are trained to do, but any time spent by a teacher sorting out a single pupil's nappy/mess is time that is being taken away from the other 30+ children in the class: and that is negatively impacting their education. In any event, the OP has stated that the child who is unable to control their bowels does NOT have a SEN plan.

Clearly you feel strongly about this issue because you have a child who has a SEN plan: but surely you agree that no other child in a class - let alone an entire class of children - should have their education negatively impacted because a teacher is having to deal with the toileting needs of one student. That's 30+ children who are having their futures impacted. And their needs are just as important as a child who has special education needs.

@Branleuse agree, it is very sad for the kids

Well you have an inflated idea of what primary headteachers earn. But also makes me a very expensive cleaner. I expected the staff to do their best to care for the children, and I'm happy to say that we all pulled together to do that.
If you're a parent you want your child cared for with dignity and love.

I think the child would be safer in school to be honest

Nobody is saying to leave the shit-covered child in that state because their Mum or Dad isn’t bothering to answer a call

Lots of people are saying that. It's literally all over this thread.

it should be an exclusion until the parents do their job.

You're advocating punishing a child for their parents actions? I'm surprised you're OK saying that, but we all have opinions.

The issue is that unless they have severe autism, LD's etc then they are not going to be accepted into a special school just because they are incontinent.

Actually no one is saying to leave the kid in shit, of course not. We are saying it's the parents problem to clean it up. Even a 3 year olds shit is disgusting, none of us would or even could do it. Could you clean up a strangers shit? I would really struggle not to throw, so I wouldn't be expecting a TA to do it. It shouldn't be something that "comes with the job". Teachers are there to educate, not to clean up shit. HTH.

From experience this is becoming very common nowadays and is sometimes a result of SEN more more often now because parents haven't toilet trained their children. In last years reception year group around 6 out of the year group had this issue and it was the responsibility of the tas to clean them up.

Honestly parents these days have no shame. I get that sine children can't help it and have learning or medical needs but some have been neglected by lazy parents. OP I don't blame you but just wanted to say it's a common occurrence

Who in this thread has suggested that a child be left in their own mess for hours??

The notion that 5 years old is a "young age" and therefore accidents are inevitable is absurd. Most children are potty trained multiple years before they attend school. Indeed many children attend kindergarten - and have to be potty trained before they are permitted to attend - and the starting age for that is 3 years old. From personal experience I can tell you that it was very rare for any child at our school (the children had to be potty trained when they attended at age 3: for the first year it was a half day of school and then it was a full day from the age of 4) to have an accident - certainly not a poop accident!! No teacher was expected to be clearing up mess - the school had support staff who were there to help with such things because a teacher's job is to teach - and the rest of the class shouldn't have their education impacted because one child has had an accident.

The issue of a medical problem causing bowel and incontinence issues is completely separate: that's an issue that needs to be reported and addressed promptly. Indeed, incontinence and bowel control problems are generally viewed as an emergency issue because they can involve nerve compression damage. Again, no parent should expect a school to have to deal with that: that's a medical issue and the parent needs to take the lead in dealing with that. A child who has ongoing medical issues requiring toileting assistance should have a SEN plan put in place that involves a dedicated support worker to help them with their toiletting. It's not a teacher's role or job to be dealing with those kinds of problems - and any time a teacher were to spend dealing with it would, of course, mean that 30+ other children are having their educations interrupted. Which impacts their own rights to an education. They have just as much right to an education as a child with medical or other SEN issues. And sadly that is often forgotten in these discussions.

I was speaking for myself, although I would disagree with any poster who would leave them like that - the smell, the hygiene issues, the embarrassment, the potential for someone else to record it on a phone.

I’m advocating that a line needs drawn somewhere. I think the worldwide consensus is that young kids will have occasional accidents at times, and so reception/Y1 teachers come to expect it. But where there’s a pattern emerging and the load is being left to teaching staff to carry, that’s where the line should be.

Home, schoolwork provided and a check in with SMT a week later to update on toileting progress. I truly believe that the issues would remarkably vanish once parents are having to deal with it themselves.