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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For refusing to change a 6 year old?

1000 replies

Bernie6678 · 02/07/2025 19:48

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
JIMER202 · 02/07/2025 23:22

Alyosha · 02/07/2025 22:44

I'm sure reading this thread must be very upsetting if you're the parent of a child with additional toileting needs. However, the reason there has been a rise in kids attending school in nappies or with regular wetting/soiling incidents is almost certainly not because of a rise in bowel conditions or SEN, it is because parents are potty training kids later: https://eric.org.uk/why-are-children-potty-training-later/

You see this a lot on parenting forums - people advising to delay potty training or abandon attempts at the first sign of resistance from children.

This isn't saying parents are "lazy", just that norms around potty training have changed (for the worse, IMO), and this has directly caused this issue.

There aren’t enough SEN schools now.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:22

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Morgenrot25 · 02/07/2025 23:22

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:20

In the UK (whichever country within the UK someone is in), it isn’t lawful to refuse a mainstream education just because of a child’s toileting needs.

I am aware of this.
I also think it will be harder for everyone as he gets older.

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:22

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:20

Where did I say Wales isn't in the UK? Those forums have UK/England then Wales in the forum username.

You said the UK & Wales as if the latter wasn’t part of the former.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 02/07/2025 23:22

Caligirl80 · 02/07/2025 22:49

Totally agree with you. If a child isn't potty trained they shouldn't be going to school. It's the parents' job to potty train a child, not the teachers. Sadly the same parents who send their children to school without adequate potty training are oftentimes the same ones who haven't bothered to teach them to read, write, or do basic maths before they get sent to school at the age of 5. It is staggering how many children cannot read - and have never been read to - at that age. I cannot fathom why people fail to potty train their children by the age of 3 (at the latest) - the cost alone of all those nappies and products must be ridiculous!

It isn't really that simple though.

When a child becomes compulsory school age, you have the option to elect them into education, or electively home educate.

Many children with toileting issues will have some sort of SEN, and others will have medical conditions, and some will have both.

When you electively home educate, you basically strip the local authority of their obligation to find suitable education for your child, which is really important to note if your child does have SEN and might require specialist provision.

Once you electively home educate, it's extremely difficult to get your child into specialist provision, which is still extremely difficult when they're in a mainstream setting anyway, but it is even moreso when they are electively home educated.

You can't just electively home educate because your child is incontinent and then expect the LA to find them a place in a specialist school because you cannot cater to their primary need at home.

This leaves many parents of SEN children or children with significant medical need stuck in a trap of sending their children to a mainstream setting that we know cannot cater to their needs because we're stuck playing a vicious game of cat and mouse chasing our tails with the LA to get needs assessments done, apply for EHCPs, fight for specialist provision, getting rejected, applying for emergency reviews, getting rejected again, going to panel, going to mediation, going to tribunal and this is a timely and stressful process, during which time our children aren't getting the support that they need to do any learning, and they're also getting shamed for having bowel and bladder issues beyond their control.

It's also very judgemental to notice that the same children that cannot read or write are the ones having toileting issues, but attribute that solely to poor parenting, when it's actually a very strong indicator of developmental delays.

I'll use me and my son as an example. He's been read to every single day of his life, we have reading hour where we go through phonics, I spend a fortune on additional learning resources, we've been toilet training since he was 18 months old, he's 6 now, we've been through speech and language 3 times, we've had occupational therapy involved twice, we've had the health visitor involved for all of his delays with no resolution, he's about to resit reception for the third year because he has not been able to make any academic progress, but if you talked to him you'd probably just see him as a sharp, but distractable young boy. You'd never know he has a significant speech delay because he can now speak, but it still impacts his comprehension and how he processes the world around him. He can't read or write. He's terrible at phonics. I've called ERIC so many times, I've done their SEN child webinars, I've quit my job to provide additional resources at home, I plan all our outings to make them as play based and educational as possible to meet him at a place where he can learn. I can't stress enough just how much additional work I put in as a parent to try and keep my child as close to his peers as possible, but you would probably see me as a workshy dosser who parents lazily because my child is still in pullups. Parents like me are a dime a dozen. You just don't know what it is that we're going through.

Our children still deserve an education and to be integrated into society despite their medical needs. They should not be kept at home, under lock and key.

Instead there should be adequate provision in schools by law to cater to these needs at the bare minimum to avoid neglect.

You're so right the cost of nappies is ridiculous. Have you seen the price of size 7 nappies? We have had babies born into the family and fully toilet trained while I'm still wiping my sons bum because he cannot do it himself. It's disheartening that he has not reached those milestones that I see others come and do in a fraction of his small life. I wish I was lazy, but it's so taxing having to change your child for 6 consecutive years. It isn't at all what you expect when you pee on that little stick, and get those 2 beautiful lines and start imagining your wonderful future together as a family. I can't imagine anyone doing this because they're lazy. This is not the lazy option.

DublinLaLaLa · 02/07/2025 23:23

I am a secondary teacher and we had a Y7 student who regularly pooed himself. Parents had no interest in pursuing any diagnosis but we believed ASD with extreme PDA traits (as in he refused to do what his body was telling him - go for a poo) The smell was horrendous. Older kids would say “Has xxx been in here” and open all the windows. The child didn’t care (obviously I didn’t engage with this sort of discussion)

Anyway, no EHCP = no care plan and that means no funded support. No one wants to change a soiled 12 year old without that being part of their job role. What we did was 1) supply him with pads (which he seemed to accept) and let him out at the end of each lesson 10 minutes early (with a staff member) but he had to go to the toilets. He had the choice each lesson on what to do.

Could you suggest that you take the child to the toilet on the hour every hour or similar? Then you are finding a solution, not just dodging the problem (which I agree isn’t yours to deal with).

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:23

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Social services run a mile every time I tell them I have send children 😂😂😂

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:23

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:22

You said the UK & Wales as if the latter wasn’t part of the former.

No check the links I used, those usernames have England then Wales in the username that's why I used it like that. It's primarily England forum, then Wales forum - that's all.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:24

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:23

Social services run a mile every time I tell them I have send children 😂😂😂

Tbh, they probably run away from your entitlement! I would run a mile aswell.

NC28 · 02/07/2025 23:25

Lots of people trotting out the “it’s neglect to leave a child soiled”. I’d agree that it is, but it solves nothing for school staff to be left with this burden of care because the parents who DGAF know that someone will take pity and change their kid without even informing them (til they’re handed a bag of pissed clothes at pickup).

So what if schools could do a three strikes policy in these circumstances? Repeated incidents where the parent is unwilling or unable to attend to their child results in an exclusion period because the other kids have a right to a full education too, and regularly losing staff members because they’re changing nappies/cleaning kids up is detrimental to that.

Yes the law says otherwise, but I think the can needs to be kicked firmly back to the parents. Give them an incentive (because apparently people need it!) when their child’s issue is stating them in the face daily, instead of some poor TA.

Theamin · 02/07/2025 23:26

NeedZzzzzssss · 02/07/2025 23:21

Well I disagree because if that's the case and no doubt the "need" will just increase, soon we won't have any teachers to teach children and where does that leave us? Perhaps you can fill the gap?

I don't make the laws, Honey.

Luckily, you 'agreeing' or not doesn't matter one bit.

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:26

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You haven’t got a clue. Ignorant.

I don’t currently have a child with toileting needs in school. Though I do have a teen with EOTAS who is incontinent. His additional needs are the reason. That is fact, not an excuse. The LA, NHS/ICB and Children’s Services all recognise that. None have a problem with my parenting. Children’s Services are involved, the CwD team, not for the reason you think.

PrincessFairyWren · 02/07/2025 23:27

Every child deserves an education including those with SEN both diagnosed and undiagnosed, and children with continence issues. The way you wrote your OP is very unreasonable in its tone and insinuation. Children do well when they are supported to do so and no six year old wets on purpose.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to refuse on the grounds of lack of training. However these children deserve to be treated with dignity and you need to sort this out with the teacher and the school. The problem is not with the children.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:28

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:26

You haven’t got a clue. Ignorant.

I don’t currently have a child with toileting needs in school. Though I do have a teen with EOTAS who is incontinent. His additional needs are the reason. That is fact, not an excuse. The LA, NHS/ICB and Children’s Services all recognise that. None have a problem with my parenting. Children’s Services are involved, the CwD team, not for the reason you think.

Edited

They clearly have a problem if they run a mile from you! Learn to read the room.

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:28

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:23

No check the links I used, those usernames have England then Wales in the username that's why I used it like that. It's primarily England forum, then Wales forum - that's all.

Then there was no need to say ‘UK & Wales’. UK alone would suffice or ‘England and Wales’

Theamin · 02/07/2025 23:29

NC28 · 02/07/2025 23:25

Lots of people trotting out the “it’s neglect to leave a child soiled”. I’d agree that it is, but it solves nothing for school staff to be left with this burden of care because the parents who DGAF know that someone will take pity and change their kid without even informing them (til they’re handed a bag of pissed clothes at pickup).

So what if schools could do a three strikes policy in these circumstances? Repeated incidents where the parent is unwilling or unable to attend to their child results in an exclusion period because the other kids have a right to a full education too, and regularly losing staff members because they’re changing nappies/cleaning kids up is detrimental to that.

Yes the law says otherwise, but I think the can needs to be kicked firmly back to the parents. Give them an incentive (because apparently people need it!) when their child’s issue is stating them in the face daily, instead of some poor TA.

but it solves nothing for school staff to be left with this burden of care

The child's right to dignity trumps this by a million times.

Yes the law says otherwise

Then I'd stop there

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:29

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:28

They clearly have a problem if they run a mile from you! Learn to read the room.

Where did I say they run a mile from me?

I don’t need to learn to read the room. You on the other hand, need to learn to read posts since it was a different poster who said that.

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:30

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:28

They clearly have a problem if they run a mile from you! Learn to read the room.

Yes. They know I'll expect the support we're legally entitled too and they will have to cough up some funding.

Kirbert2 · 02/07/2025 23:31

NC28 · 02/07/2025 23:06

I’m just curious really - why is he unable to tend to (or learn to tend to) his own bowel issue? You mention the absence of any LD/behaviour issues, so is that a hope for the future at all? That he’ll manage it himself in his later schooling years?

He is physically disabled and unable to change himself. He will likely always need support with that.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:31

perpetualplatespinning · 02/07/2025 23:29

Where did I say they run a mile from me?

I don’t need to learn to read the room. You on the other hand, need to learn to read posts since it was a different poster who said that.

I'm sorry, too many entitled parents on here who expect primary teachers to be substitute parents to change nappies, teach how to brush their teeth and well parent them. Because parents themselves can't be bothered to that. Like yourself.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:32

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:30

Yes. They know I'll expect the support we're legally entitled too and they will have to cough up some funding.

Edited

Anything to excuse yourself from doing basic parenting. Nice.

Ilovechocolatelimesandsherbertlemons · 02/07/2025 23:32

As a former primary headteacher I did many things not in my "job description" including clearing up sick, cleaning up diarrhoea and changing children who had had accidents. It never bothered me at all. The child may not appear to have SEN to an untrained TA, but there will almost certainly be an emotional or physical problem. For example, one child I knew who soiled regularly was being sexually abused following the death of his mother.

We have a duty of care to all the children at the school, and it is our responsibility to ensure the children are not sitting in soiled clothes, upset and undignified for possibly hours. It takes time to diagnose these issues; in the meantime time I would expect my staff to care enough to help the child kindly. A child of that age is not able to clean themselves effectively. I'm shocked at the uncaring responses.
Maybe teaching young children is not the right job for the OP?

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:33

I'd also point out it's highly unlikely if op is on a uni work placement that many, if any details will have been shared with her re what school or parents are doing about this situation. If school know parents are under health care and seeking support, all they can do is support the child in setting until any conclusions are made and everyone knows exactly what's happening.

FloofyBird · 02/07/2025 23:34

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:32

Anything to excuse yourself from doing basic parenting. Nice.

Oh do bore off.

SassyTurtle · 02/07/2025 23:35

Ilovechocolatelimesandsherbertlemons · 02/07/2025 23:32

As a former primary headteacher I did many things not in my "job description" including clearing up sick, cleaning up diarrhoea and changing children who had had accidents. It never bothered me at all. The child may not appear to have SEN to an untrained TA, but there will almost certainly be an emotional or physical problem. For example, one child I knew who soiled regularly was being sexually abused following the death of his mother.

We have a duty of care to all the children at the school, and it is our responsibility to ensure the children are not sitting in soiled clothes, upset and undignified for possibly hours. It takes time to diagnose these issues; in the meantime time I would expect my staff to care enough to help the child kindly. A child of that age is not able to clean themselves effectively. I'm shocked at the uncaring responses.
Maybe teaching young children is not the right job for the OP?

Can you just think about the salary difference, you were entitled to £100k+ salary and rightfully so but OP is on £13k. You made £87k+ more roughly.. Again, mind boggles.

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