For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

Would be interesting to see if the current state of affairs changed if the kid was sent home every single time it happened. I think a huge part of the issue is the “out of sight, out of mind” aspect for parents.

That information being relevant to everyone.

Maybe they have - how do you know they haven't? You do realise these things take a LONG time don't you? Even urgent cases can take weeks or months. This poor child still deserves to be in education.

Yep, and expecting teaching staff to be carers.

Oh my god. The attitudes on this thread to this poor little child are awful. It's making me so grateful that my poor little autistic boy is in such a lovely school with wonderful staff who look after him and care about him. What a different exprtince he could be having in a different setting with different teachers/ TAs.

And so do all the other kids - teachers and TAs being taken away from education to change children regularly harms all the other children's education too. I would be very unhappy if my year 1 son was missing large chunks of education so children could be changed. It's not my son's teacher's job to do that (and given his teacher is a somewhat grumpy man, I know that he would point blank refuse to do it any case!).

Teachers in school act in loco parentis, meaning they do have a duty of care towards the children in the same way parents would, including: Keeping children safe from harm, taking care of their basic needs (if a child soils themselves they cannot just be neglected), managing emotional, physical and medical concerns appropriately and reporting safeguarding concerns or neglect.

This does NOT mean that teachers should do anything and everything a parent would do and certainly not without the appropriate training and supervision.

The OP needs to check what is in her contract, the school policy around intimate care, and that there has been a safeguarding risk assessment.

If there isn't anybody able to provide that care then the school (not the individual staff members) are failing in their duty to provide adequate safeguarding.

“Governing bodies should ensure that staff have received suitable training and are competent before they take on responsibility to support children with medical conditions.”
— DfE: Supporting Pupils at School with Medical Conditions, 2015

This extends to toileting needs, as it's highly likely that children past the age of 6 with both bladder or bowel toileting needs will be related to a diagnosed or undiagnosed medical condition.

In this instance, it sounds like the OP has confirmed that the school have 1 staff member that is trained and willing to provide intimate care, but the school have not sourced an appropriate contingency plan for when that staff member is unavailable, and this could be seen as a legitimate safeguarding failure of the school.

Contingency planning is a part of risk management and safeguarding, and it should not fall to untrained, unconsenting staff to fill the gaps. The school should be sourcing adequate emergency cover.

The OP needs to counter this complaint, and has good grounds to do so because she is not trained, has not consented, has not been involved in any risk assessments and has a duty of care to the children to raise this as a safeguarding matter.

I am a parent of a 6 year old who wears pull-ups and doesn't have SEN.

My 6yo DD was born with a bowel condition called anorectal malformation, which affects about 1 in 5,000 children. I won’t go into all the details here, but it’s easy to look up if anyone is curious. In her case, she was born without an anus and had one surgically created. Which I can say publicly here as no-one knows here knows who I am. Usually I keep it secret as it's her body. It means she’s unable to feel when she needs to open her bowels, so she still wears pull-ups at the moment—even at school.

She doesn't have any special educational needs as her only issue is this medical condition, so she isn't considered SEN. She has a healthcare plan in place, and legally the school have to accommodate her needs as she has a disability. That includes not calling me in to change her, which I couldn't do anyway as I have to work, like many other parents.

I’m incredibly grateful to the wonderful TAs who treat my daughter with dignity and kindness. They keep her condition secret so most of the other children haven't noticed and don't even know.

She’s a bright, happy, and sweet little girl who has already been through so much, including multiple major operations as she had a stoma for a while. Thanks to those TAs, she’s able to go to school like any other child, make friends, and feel included. She loves school and is doing well there academically and socially. That matters—a lot.

And for those talking about how much time it takes up...she's a very well behaved child. I can assure you that she takes up a lot less of the TAs time and attention than a lot of the other children do.

I think some of you would be susprised how common bowel conditions are. Just because you think you don't think you know any children with one, it doesn't meant you actually don't. There are many children at school with other physical disabilities and medical conditions that need help with care needs. I passionately believe that they have as much right to be there as any other children.

I don’t know if hearing this perspective helps, but I hope it does, even a little. There's a lot of education needed.

Yeah, I understand it's good practice to teach basic teeth hygiene and how to care for them. But, you'd think the parents would be interested in teaching their children :( just makes me feel sad..

In my son's case, it is known exactly what is going on and it's due to his bowel not working correctly despite medication and a restricted diet.

It isn't entitled to expect that my son is educated even though he has medical needs.

Well it's relevant to teachers since it's the law

And, as I've said, they probably had little actual choice.* *

Some parents are teaching their children to the best of their ability, which may fall short of what is actually enough. It's not choosing to be neglectful. It is sad though, definitely.

Seeing as you don't feel you should be doing it as a TA, will you be happy to do it if you qualify as a teacher?

Teachers shouldn't be doing it at all.

I'm so glad I taught secondary because I would absolutely not have been ok with this.

Teaching is not 'care' work.

I'm going by what the OP has written, safeguarding referrals made to the local authority are acted on. My point is if it's documented and there is a medical reason then it should be expected and plan put into place. Can't give parents benefit of doubt

Wtf? The child regularly craps himself and you're being expected to deal with the mess?? That's absurd!!! No teacher should be dealing with a child's private parts anyway! Let alone having to clean up excrement!

I hope you're keeping records of every time this happens. Frankly I can't believe it's happened more than once! I don't think I can remember ANY child at my school crapping themselves - and I was sent to school from the age of 3!!! There were maybe a few wee accidents (which was hilarious because the school just had Y fronts for the kids to use - I recall my little sister coming home and being absolutely thrilled that the school had given her some underoos that had a "pocket" in them 😂but a poop debacle? At the age of 6?? No. The child needs some help - and not from you.

Are you a member of a union? If not, please join one and ask them to help you. Whatever you do please keep records of all this stuff - and have all the communications about it in writing, not verbally (that way you'll have a record about it all). Another good idea that can be helpful is to always CC someone - a superior ideally depending on the situation - if you are experiencing issues like this - that way no one can turn around and complain about you down the line. If another staff member is giving you grief about it then, again, have the conversation in writing and copy (or BCC if you are worried) a superior about it. But I would make a written request to have an urgent meeting with the head of year (or higher) and the school nurse about this situation - because obviously it's concerning that a 6 year old child cannot control their bowels - which could be indicative of all manner of problems (everything from spinal problems, to nerve issues, to bowel/digestive issues, to mental health difficulties, to even - god forbid - abuse) that should be checked by doctors.

Again, not everyone lives where the specific law applies. 🫣

You'd be surprised. My mother didn't care. I was always grotty as a child. Snotty nose, chapped lips, dirty clothes, only went in the bath once a week, she never brushed my hair so it was matted underneath. I was always embarrassed, I knew I smelt. Some people just have other priorities and should never of had children.

I'm sure reading this thread must be very upsetting if you're the parent of a child with additional toileting needs. However, the reason there has been a rise in kids attending school in nappies or with regular wetting/soiling incidents is almost certainly not because of a rise in bowel conditions or SEN, it is because parents are potty training kids later: https://eric.org.uk/why-are-children-potty-training-later/

You see this a lot on parenting forums - people advising to delay potty training or abandon attempts at the first sign of resistance from children.

This isn't saying parents are "lazy", just that norms around potty training have changed (for the worse, IMO), and this has directly caused this issue.

But it is entitled you expect the lowest paid person to change your child regularly. Also why can't he clean himself up, my 2.5 yo old could do a pretty good job when they had an accident at nursery, the teachers found them washing their undies in the sink!

So you don't live in the UK?

Is comprehension a struggle for you?

Well it is lazy really, no other word for it. Note it's the parents expectations that have changed so it doesn't affect them! Not to mention it seems to be a norm for a minority of parents, everything I've read is you should do it before 3 years, as it becomes harder to toilet train after that age.

Possibly not.

If they didn't and they secretly resent him because he has medical needs and has to be changed multiple times a day then they do a great job of hiding it anyway.

You are exactly right. Sadly things like this can be indicative of awful things that don't bear thinking about - but in this case they do have to be thought about and referred. I, and most other parents, would far rather a teacher refer any safeguarding concern, than not.