For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

My thoughts exactly.

It isn't entitled to expect that your child is cared for appropriately in school and for some children, especially those with SEN and/or medical needs, it will also include changing them.

What does the school policy on toileting/ continence/ soiling say? All schools should have one now. Local council should also have guidance for you to access.
At 6 years old, it's a bit premature to say no SEN- there could be. There could also be an underlying medical problem.
Due to wait times, its very possible that the child just doesn't have a diagnosis yet. It's more likely than the 'lazy parent' narrative at 6 years old.
There must be intimate care training available, which won't take long to do.
Accidents, vomit, nits , etc are not something anyone working with children can completely avoid.

No, it says in their job description which she doesn’t have. She hasn’t no certification for that care and could be accused of all sorts of things if not qualified and parents will sue if they don’t like something she did or said. Whether it’s true or not. I wouldn’t do it.

The main problem is parents expect a lot from teachers/ta etc. especially primary. If either of them dare to say no: in their eyes they should be struck off, career ruined and face legal consequences for daring to say no! Unless medical conditions/SEN....

1. A teacher/ta is not your child's mother. (I use mother because primary school is overwhelmed with females!)
2. A teacher/ta is not there to change your child's nappy and care for them in that manner due to numerous challenges that can occur e.g. safeguarding.
3. A teacher/ta isn't their to make up for your neglect and lack of parenting for your child's basic care and need.
4. A teacher/ta is not a babysitting/childcare service for your darlings.
5. A teacher/ta job is PRIMARILY to educate your child. Teach them the alphabet, phonics, English - how to use capital letters and full steps, Maths - how to add or divide or whatever, Science - what is photosynthesis?

But again, it's ALWAYS the schools fault. Parents are never to blame. Its always the teachers/ta fault if their little precious child does something "bad".

Then, people why teachers are having a recruitment crisis. Expecting a ta who earns £13/14k to clean up poo on daily basis.

I wasn’t talking about OP…. I was talking about my DC school.

Plenty of support workers and carers out there that clean adults who are soiled or wet for minimum wage. Most people who do personal care are on minimum wage, why do you think you're above that?
I don't think your employer is going to think very well of you to refuse to care for the children and this could hinder your training and future job opportunities.

As the teacher has complained, why not say you are happy to guide wet changes so that you show willing. Perhaps ask what the process is for recording and notifying soiling incidents to parents as a learning for you and how the child can be checked by a GP and given support. There is, as you are discovering, a huge social aspect to teaching.
On another point, adults who have bowel issues, constipation/diarrhoea. A problem that can sometimes be solved by looking at food/diet as the first most obvious question. Perhaps something to consider.

Perhaps you should accept we're not all in England. 😬

Hopefully your university will give you some understanding of humans, especially small children. If they haven't been taught the right behaviour at home, they won't know. If they don't understand consequences, they won't know. SEND needs exist without a diagnosis, you don't get handed a newborn with attached diagnosis labels.
Caring for children is your job. That means you provide whatever aspect of care is required. Your degree does not make you better than anybody else - especially as most teachers, especially secondary level have master's degrees and even PhDs for science roles.

Quite frankly, it wouldn't matter to me if there's an element of SEN or not. If it's not in your job description, I wouldn't want to accept it as part of my responsibilities. Of course the teacher doesn't want to deal with it, but why would you or any other TA feel any differently?

Erm because that’s carers job- it’s what they sign a contract to do?
it’s not about being above them, it’s just a totally different job

If you've had no intimate care training then I don't think this should be within your remit, however I also don't think it's reasonable to expect parents to come in to change this child.

If this child gets left sat in their own poo, then that would be neglectful.

Children over 5 who are not toilet trained should be referred for further investigation for the cause, which could indeed be disability related that has not yet been picked up on. Schools must not discriminate against children with toileting issues if they meet the disability threshhold which is:

Has lasted or is expected to last 12 months and substantially limits independence, which it clearly has and does with this child.

I think you should decline, as you've not been briefed, given consent to an intimate care plan, and are not trained in this area but you should also push for a needs assessment for this child.

She hasn’t applied to be a support worker though ?

You have completely misunderstood the job. Educating is the job/ not caring.

Did the school really have much choice?
😑

Are teachers also expected to feed kids who can’t manage cutlery? Do they clean their faces if they’ve got food on it?

When I taught in Reception (last around 15 years ago), we were expected to go into the dining hall with the children for up to the first half term as necessary to model to the children how to sit at a table to eat a meal and how to use cutlery, to eat with mouths closed and just basic/general table manners because so many hadn't been taught at home.

Nowadays, Reception teachers have to physically brush children's teeth because it's not being done at home.

When I was in the same Reception class, a child in my class had a poo accident. Fortunately, being in Reception, the toilets were in a room off the classroom so I put the most able child in the class in charge of doing phonics (showing flashcards) for the reat of the class whilst I intermittently stood in the doorway of the classroom/toilets and directed a 5 year old girl to clean herself up, provided clean clothes, a carrier bag for the dirty clothes and reassurance that everything was ok whilst I also kept an eye on the rest of the class. I didn't have a full time TA.

I used to do this type of work. You receive training before, and should be offered a hepatitis vaccination. The OP hasnt.

I will get flamed but don't care, I have noticed the parents who have children with SEN and/or medical needs are very entitled and expect too much off mainstream teachers. They're putting the blame in the wrong place, these children should be in SEN school which is critically underfunded by the government by these figures:

There are:
16,764 primary schools (mainstream)
1,089 primary schools (sen)
if we take this away..
15,675 more mainstream primary schools..

Yet, primary teachers are at fault when there isn't enough SEN schools to go around and are expected to become martyrs who clean up poo on a daily basis. Especially from TA's who only earn £13k if that.

Who said it was the child's fault?
It's not the responsibility of a random teacher/TA to provide intimate care.

You say you have not had training in intimate care and that the TA who usually does this is off sick so the class teacher is having to do it - does this mean the TA usually provides intimate care alone?

1. Intimate care should involve two members of staff, for protection of the staff member from allegations as much as safeguarding the child.
2. If you have not had training, and this is something you should receive before undertaking intimate care, then you may not be covered by the school’s insurance company. Ask to check the wording of the policy.
3. Human excrement is hazardous waste. If you aren’t provided with full PPE appropriate for the task then you should not be clearing it up. So gloves, apron, disinfectant etc. And you will probably need training if you’re using chemicals to comply with insurance conditions.
4. Child’s parents may not be happy to know that their child is expected to receive intimate care from untrained members of staff and that there is no chaperone present when it takes place.

I would not be happy with this arrangement, nor would I do this in your shoes.

A primary school teacher/teaching assistant isn't a support worker.

This constant SEN argument. Yes the number of diagnoses are increasing rapidly. Yes we know more about these conditions now and awareness leads to less stigma and more people being open…that’s all fair.

But, diagnosis or not, kids with SEN have existed for donkeys years. In spite of this, the general consensus is that when we adults were at school in the 70s-early 2000s, it was rare that someone was incontinent. So why is it not commonplace that several kids will do it each day/week at school?

This can’t all be put down to SEN. As I said above, kids with SEN issues have always been there, yet the frequency of incontinence (as well as kids being unable to put shoes on/feed themselves/hold a pencil) has clearly gone through the roof.

This is why staff are leaving the sector

The teaching assistant is there to assist the teacher. The teacher, who is qualified to teach, should be focused on the teaching. Just as in hospitals the HCA's who are lowest paid do the personal care and the qualified staff do the job they are qualified to do. Could you imagine a doctor being told to do personal care by a HCA because they are paid more.