For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

If children are not toilet trained and non verbal at school age it unlikely to be due to poor parenting
My non verbal not toilet trained child school aged child was severely autistic with severe learning disabilities, but thankfully went to a special school

For some kids this isn't possible.

Yes!

The point is all this happens way way more frequently than it used to. I doubt the OP would mind helping a child change occasionally, and neither should she, but on a daily basis, it’s not her job.

YANBU @Bernie6678

I’ve just looked at the intimate care policy at my children’s school, from their website. They’re a large academy trust.

It says that any staff who may need to provide intimate care will have it in their job description and that this includes all staff. Which indicates to me that they expect everyone who works there to be able to provide this care if needed.

That’s bloody ludicrous. Appalling that parents are allowing their child (with the usual exceptions!) to age with such little development of essential skills.

Perhaps you should try reading it.

There's no intimate care plan and you have not had intimate care training. If you were to clean the child up, would this be a safeguarding issue?

Poo is a biohazard. Nobody should be cleaning it up without a mask, plastic apron and gloves. I cleaned up poo three nights a week for six years. I never, ever cleaned it up without these things. Infection control.

Why on earth aren't the school in contact with the parents over this? Surely all parties concerned would want to check for medical issues.

Me going in to change him which would be multiple times a day, not just once or twice would involve him being left in his own faeces until I got there which isn't acceptable.

School agreed and would never leave him soiled just so I could change him.

We had a store of old pants / knickers, trousers and skirts. Suitable items were given to the child along with a plastic bag to put their own stuff in and it was given to the parents at home time. Then the parents would be expected to wash and return the spares.

I wouldn't want a teacher or TA providing intimate care for my child. Surely giving them a pack of wipes and directing them would be sufficient for wees and I would expect the school to contact me for a poo?

After reading about the Joshua Dale Brown case which is being reported in Australia I will be teaching my child that no one is to touch them in private areas.

An LSA is not the same as a TA.

Actually, LAs and schools often use the terms interchangeably. Your school/LA may not, but many do.

You saying it's not her job doesn't make it not her job. The head clearly thinks it is part of her job.

I would be skeptical there are not underlying issues. Either undiagnosed SN or chronic medical issues at age 6. The school should be working with the parents to minimize impact on teacher time, minimize disruption to students educational time, and very importantly minimize the social fallout for these children.

As a TA, this may be part of your job for this age group. You need to talk to your supervisor and get clarity on the issue.

The parents aren't there. That isn't going to change however much you think they should be.

It isn't the child's fault.

Why are you only wanting opinions from mums? You know dads change kids too? Are you a male?

Well unlucky for you the Gov says every child is entitled to suitable full time education and that includes meeting their send and medical needs in school without a parent having to go in and do it. If you dislike it take it up with the Government.

Of course you shouldn't be doing this, no teachers should unless it was a rare accident. If schools stop accepting this, I bet the children needing this would drastically change. There's a trend of children starting school who can't do basic things, writing their name, knowing their numbers, holding a pencil properly and now it's even worse where they aren't even toilet trained. My cousin is a teacher and has noticed this, she says it's lazy parenting. People really need to stop making excuses.

To be fair my 3 year old can change her clothes herself and wipe herself up, with a little guidance so it seems odd that 6 year olds can’t do this? Are you sure there is no SEN?

it seems a lot is expected from teachers/TAs - how is anyone able to learn effectively if teachers and those support staff are constantly having to leave to clean up children etc etc.

When I worked in a primary school we wasn’t allowed in the toilets with a child

Exactly, teachers are there to teach not to clean up shitty pants. The parents should be responsible for sorting this out.

You have a very entitled attitude and this is probably why so many parents don't bother, because they know the schools have no choice

But you do have to go in if there is a problem with your child like they vomit or fall over and you take them to the doctor etc . Ultimately they are your responsibility . You should be the one teaching them about toilet training or how to clean up after themselves. You should take them to the doctor if you believe there is a medical problem that makes them poo them selves . Too much is put on teachers and TAs.

The role of a TA is to support the teacher and the child and that often includes helping with personal care.

I’ve read almost the whole thread and I can understand some kids will have accidents but at that age surely they should be able to clean themselves with some wet wipes and change their clothing and put the soiled clothes in a plastic bag?

If support is needed or instructions or encouragement then a member of staff could be behind a toilet door, this gives a child more privacy and dignity and prevents the risk of any accusation. This is also surely a positive in promoting independence?

If a child isn’t toilet trained to the basics of being able to wipe their bottom then I don’t think they are ready to be in full time education without support.

If a child has SEN and a care plan in place it’s a bit different but I still think they should be encouraged to be as independent as possible.

I worked as a support worker for adults with autism and other mental health issues and mental illness, some service users had some physical disabilities. It was difficult because we had a lot of agency staff who weren’t familiar with the service users or care plans or male staff when there were mostly female service users (a lot who had suffered sexual trauma and requested female only support workers).
We did have to help with personal care and toileting but it was a last resort to have to completely assist with cleaning up wee or poo, this was mainly to preserve dignity but also to promote independence.
I don’t think anyone minded cleaning up someone who was completely incapable as it would be neglect to leave them dirty. It always seemed to be the same people though and we all insisted on it being included in a care plan and two members of staff present.

If parents are aware of additional help needing with toilet issues then they need to do all they can to help the child with toilet training and not leave it up to someone else to teach their child and if that’s not possible then a plan needs putting in place with trained staff and to see if the child can be as independent as possible at cleaning themselves up.
As some pp have mentioned some children will just poo or wee because they are distracted or playing, if they then need to clean it up it might prevent it happing again.

I don’t remember many children having accidents at school and my cousin who has been a primary teacher for years said this is quite a recent occurrence with multiple children going to school without being toilet trained, I think if parents are available to go into school to clean up their children who they haven’t trained then they should, kids go to school to be educated not parented!