Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be done with Labour - no money will be saved

429 replies

Viviennemary · 01/07/2025 18:54

I've just seen on ITV news that even if the bill goes through no money whatsoever will be saved. So it all seems a pretty pointless exercise. What on earth was the point of all this fuss and argument. Might have guessed this government would be a disaster. That huge majority and they can't get anything done.

I hate to think what the UK will be like after 4 more years of this.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
echt · 02/07/2025 02:37

Livelovebehappy · 02/07/2025 00:19

Maybe you’re so blinkered, that you don’t see it? Clearly your mind set is that there are very few fraudulent claimers, so you will only see what you want to see.

@ForWittyTealOP 's point was that an assertion about benefit fraud was made without any evidence.

What's really barmy is you having claiming a peek into her "mindset" when she'd just like some clarification.

MyNameIsX · 02/07/2025 05:53

Labour are truly the nasty party.

They have everyone at each others throats - with their inflation-busting pay rises for their union mates in the public sector, whilst they look to screw over the old, the disabled, the small business owner.

Vicious and incompetent - hard to find a more toxic combination.

User37482 · 02/07/2025 05:54

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 22:29

How is that balanced out by the government's pro business policies and their willingness to accede to lobbying? How impactful are the policies you quote?

Which ones?

Given we are shedding jobs I doubt anything is balancing out.

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 06:16

In comparison to what the Tories did after 14 years ? Oh you meaning nothing.

Tories did nothing and Reform would completely dismantle the welfare state. I know which I’d rather have out of the three.

You’re getting boring OP. Same threads you keep starting.

Jennps · 02/07/2025 06:18

echt · 02/07/2025 02:37

@ForWittyTealOP 's point was that an assertion about benefit fraud was made without any evidence.

What's really barmy is you having claiming a peek into her "mindset" when she'd just like some clarification.

Enhanced PIP payments for autism
2019: 26,256
2025: 114,211

Anxiety and depression
2019: 23,647
2025: 110,075

ADHD
2019: 4,233
2025: 37,339

'Obesity'
2019: 2,346
2025: 11,228

if you think that that this points to a genuine increase, then you are either naive or ideologically blinded. Both are dangerous

ForWittyTealOP · 02/07/2025 06:25

Flippityflopflip · 02/07/2025 00:47

But that's the issue. Someone can get PIP based on "........ how someone is affected by their disability or condition."

If you have a physical disability, then it is more or less clear to demonstrate and prove how their disability affects them.

However, if someone has a mental health issue, then unless you have severe autism and are non verbal, are seriously mentally disabled and need constant care, or have been sectioned numerous times and are a danger to themselves or others, then often the affect of the condition is always going to be self reported, subjective. It can be self reported to GPs, hospital consultants and they may agree, based on observations of them, but primarily on what the patient tells them.

So, when there are multiple sources of information on the internet about the affect of certain conditions, when there are numerous tutorials on-line about how to fill in the forms to achieve a successful PIP claim or other benefits, then surprise, surprise, we have a rocketing welfare bill.

Many people do qualify for and need benefits, but equally there are many people who have no qualms about exaggerating or inventing a condition, if it means they can get more money, or don't have to work.

And those that say, fraud within the PIP scheme is negligible, well when there are so few checks after getting PIP and other benefits, they will show that the numbers are low. Unless you do enough inestigations, they will never establish the true scale of the matter.

So many conditions can improve, with better social intereactions, better resilience building, better support. But as is the case with many benefits, once commenced, claimants won't say that they are better and no longer entitled to it, because like us all, if we have a specific income coming in we live up to it and then can't adjust to having less money.

However, an exponentially increasing welfare bill is unsustainable and will ultimately harm the life chances of future generations as well as bankrupting the country.

The Labour MPs who rebelled are forgetting who their core voters are supposed to be. The people that labour. The people that work for a living, that pay their taxes and in the main are responsible hard working citizens. They willingly support welfare to those in temporary need and to those who can never work due to severe life impacting physical and mental disabilities who need constant care from others.

However, there is an expectation of fairness in the country's social contract with each other. It's not always achievable, but in respect of workers and adult age non-workers who can work but choose not to work or say they will only do so if specific conditions of x, y and z are met (pensioners aside), the pendulum has swung too far and it needs rebalancing.

Welfare reform is vital and shouldn't be avoided. Also, some things can't be consulted on. Will the charities supporting disabled people and those with conditions really say, oh we don't need this and that? Of course not. It's like Turkeys voting for Christmas. It doesn't happen.

PIP is robustly assessed.

We don't have an "exponentially increasing welfare bill",; we spend almost exactly the same percentage of GDP on benefits as we did in 2013/14.

ForWittyTealOP · 02/07/2025 06:29

Jennps · 02/07/2025 06:18

Enhanced PIP payments for autism
2019: 26,256
2025: 114,211

Anxiety and depression
2019: 23,647
2025: 110,075

ADHD
2019: 4,233
2025: 37,339

'Obesity'
2019: 2,346
2025: 11,228

if you think that that this points to a genuine increase, then you are either naive or ideologically blinded. Both are dangerous

The fact that you believe anyone gets PIP for "obesity" negates any point you feel you have successfully made.

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 06:39

Jennps · 02/07/2025 06:18

Enhanced PIP payments for autism
2019: 26,256
2025: 114,211

Anxiety and depression
2019: 23,647
2025: 110,075

ADHD
2019: 4,233
2025: 37,339

'Obesity'
2019: 2,346
2025: 11,228

if you think that that this points to a genuine increase, then you are either naive or ideologically blinded. Both are dangerous

So where did you get your figures? Link please.

Re the ASC, ADHD and depression many will have all 3 and be the same people because they are often interconnected and thus more debilitating. Most wouldn't just get PIP for any one of these 3 conditions. Comorbities would need to be involved too.

Also to dispel the myth re ADHD diagnosis numbers www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5vp62dnnro.amp

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 06:40

Also PIP has gone up a 5th due to the pension age increasing- just so we’re aware.

From the BBC

“Under current rules, once someone reaches state pension age (currently 66 and due to rise to 67 by the end of 2028) they usually no longer qualify for Pip.
This rise in the state pension age means the working-age population is growing, putting more pressure on the system.
Ms Murphy believes it is responsible for about a fifth of the increase in health and disability-related benefit claims over the past decade.”

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 06:49

And your OP is incorrect- the bill will save £2 billion a year.

MrsMurphyIWish · 02/07/2025 06:57

I have applied for PIP for my son as he has autism as it is clear his needs are becoming more severe - not less - as he becomes older.

We are currently try 25 weeks since application and it wasn’t a case of just filling in a form, like some posters are alluding to. I had supply his EHCP, years of consultant notes and his SENCo provided a statement.

I wish it were as easy as “I have mental health issues, give me my money”! I would rather my son not have to apply for PIP as his future will be far more difficult than my other child’s.

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 07:03

MrsMurphyIWish · 02/07/2025 06:57

I have applied for PIP for my son as he has autism as it is clear his needs are becoming more severe - not less - as he becomes older.

We are currently try 25 weeks since application and it wasn’t a case of just filling in a form, like some posters are alluding to. I had supply his EHCP, years of consultant notes and his SENCo provided a statement.

I wish it were as easy as “I have mental health issues, give me my money”! I would rather my son not have to apply for PIP as his future will be far more difficult than my other child’s.

Yep 4 in my house have autism and adhd ( nhs diagnosis) 3 have other comorbities including severe depression, EDs and CPTSD. ND people are often more at risk of abuse and trauma all of which are harder to treat. Only one has PIP Im hoping all will end up working, 2 already are. Said PIP form was massive, 14 pages long and we had to send masses of professional related evidence. I ended up having help with it by the NHs professionals who urged us to apply. I have a degree and and found it hard and gruelling to complete.

party4you · 02/07/2025 07:09

Sadcafe · 01/07/2025 19:47

Just talked about all this with OH , one year in, illegal immigration massively up, welfare bill skyrocketing and any attempt to halt derailed, NHS still in a state, list just goes on, struggling to see what they have actually achieved

And how do you fix something in a year that’s being degraded for 14??? Use your thinking cap mate. The issue is the left are upset labour aren’t being left enough but they need to pander to the right too.

EasternStandard · 02/07/2025 07:11

party4you · 02/07/2025 07:09

And how do you fix something in a year that’s being degraded for 14??? Use your thinking cap mate. The issue is the left are upset labour aren’t being left enough but they need to pander to the right too.

By not making things worse. Which Labour are doing.

User135644 · 02/07/2025 07:21

Labour Out!

If they lose MN though they really are done..one of the last vestiges of lefty liberal Britain.

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 07:24

EasternStandard · 02/07/2025 07:11

By not making things worse. Which Labour are doing.

They’re saving £2 billion a year which I don’t recall the Tories doing in 14 years.

Theunamedcat · 02/07/2025 07:29

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 07:24

They’re saving £2 billion a year which I don’t recall the Tories doing in 14 years.

They really won't if you look at the bigger picture carers will have to return to work this means someone will have to care for the people left behind that means state funded care homes and care packages just because the pip is gone doesn't mean the problem is resolved

Sunshineandrainbow · 02/07/2025 07:29

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 06:40

Also PIP has gone up a 5th due to the pension age increasing- just so we’re aware.

From the BBC

“Under current rules, once someone reaches state pension age (currently 66 and due to rise to 67 by the end of 2028) they usually no longer qualify for Pip.
This rise in the state pension age means the working-age population is growing, putting more pressure on the system.
Ms Murphy believes it is responsible for about a fifth of the increase in health and disability-related benefit claims over the past decade.”

Edited

If you already receive PIP before state pension age do you then carry on getting it ? I have heard people wanting to apply before reaching state pension age and I wondered if that was the reason.

goldfishbowl2025 · 02/07/2025 07:40

This government has cost me tens of thousands of pounds, in lost business and revenue that directly impacts employees lives, so many businesses I work with have put on recruitment freezes and the costs of hiring staff is so so high. Sad times.

JustPinkFinch · 02/07/2025 07:43

I am NHS diagnosed ND for many years. I don't claim PIP. I do run several successful businesses. Previously I struggled to work for an employer, though 3 long days a week suited me well enough when I worked in the NHS. Self employment was the best route for me long term.

Today:- I pay so much tax, NI & VAT. Too much of my life revolves around accountants and paying HMRC. The bureaucracy is neverending. I've had several compliance checks over the years where months of my life were tied up by the state, who ultimately didn't get a single extra penny out of me.

I feel too many people are taking from the state, and also that the state is taking too much from the people. Chicken and egg.

I am personally working on reducing what I earn and pay by closing one B2C business. Were the VAT threshold higher, I likely would keep it open. I am not incentivised to be an entrepreneur in the UK. This all started under the Tories, it's not unique to Labour. Though they have made things worse.

If there was a general election tomorrow I don't know who I would vote for. It all feels like a shit show.

ForWittyTealOP · 02/07/2025 07:56

Sunshineandrainbow · 02/07/2025 07:29

If you already receive PIP before state pension age do you then carry on getting it ? I have heard people wanting to apply before reaching state pension age and I wondered if that was the reason.

Yes you can do.

CurrentHun · 02/07/2025 08:05

Jennps your initial posts on this thread were so ableist- you had accused disabled people of lying about having disabling conditions to get benefits- that your hate speech got you deleted. You’re still doubling down. Something else must be driving this level of antagonism towards disabled people living in poverty. It’s not factual.

I will say again by the government’s own statistics, PIP has a 0% fraud rate. The lowest fraud rate of all the benefits I think. So is it that you just don’t think disabled people should be supported by the state?

We’re on to another day of news coverage about this issue now and I am massively fucked off with this government’s entire leadership including Starmer, Rayner, Kendall and Reeves today.

They were absolutely happy to chuck disabled people under the bus and to encourage everybody else in their party to do so. They have left disabled people in a state of anxiety and fear over the past few months while their financial futures were in jeopardy. The whole rhetoric of the party leadership around this of the undeserving disabled poor has encouraged a growth in people making vile untrue statements about disabled people online.

All that long term damage. Yet Starmer and the others only agreed to not rush in the cuts now, as a matter of party management and saving their own face, so as not to have the Bill completely chucked out. It wasn’t a principled choice. They don’t give a shit about disabled people’s lives.

Once again thank you to the Labour backbenchers and the other parties’ rebels for standing up for not forcing disabled adults into living in poverty. Thank you for standing up for dignity and decency. We have a lot of public health and employment problems to solve but this Bill is/was only ever able make cuts and throw people into poverty. Thus costing more for all the other public services that would have had to try to pick up the pieces of that. Distinct lack of genuine employment support

CurrentHun · 02/07/2025 08:09

ForWittyTealOP · 02/07/2025 07:56

Yes you can do.

And if you didn’t need PIP before pension age and come to need extra support, then you can claim attendance allowance if you’re a pensioner.

Are people now going to start coming at disabled pensioner claimants for that too?

MyNameIsX · 02/07/2025 08:09

L1ghyn1ngBug · 02/07/2025 07:24

They’re saving £2 billion a year which I don’t recall the Tories doing in 14 years.

Would you like to put that 2 bn in context?

Happy to do it for you, as its a rounding error.