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To be done with Labour - no money will be saved

429 replies

Viviennemary · 01/07/2025 18:54

I've just seen on ITV news that even if the bill goes through no money whatsoever will be saved. So it all seems a pretty pointless exercise. What on earth was the point of all this fuss and argument. Might have guessed this government would be a disaster. That huge majority and they can't get anything done.

I hate to think what the UK will be like after 4 more years of this.

OP posts:
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7
Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:14

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:05

You might know one person playing the system. I don't. So immediately your statement is proved inaccurate.

There's more evidence to show that PIP is unclaimed by those with a rightful entitlement than that widespread abuse of the system occurs. You only have to look at the numbers of claims initially refused (almost 50%) and the numbers of cases at tribunal that are successful (c two out of three) to realise that whatever is wrong with the system isn't being caused by extensive fraud.

I know several. So on average they are still accurate

Dappy777 · 01/07/2025 23:15

20,000 immigrants arrived in the U.K. via small boats in the first half of this year. That is double the number who arrived during the same period last year. Everywhere I look in my home town I see groups of young immigrant men wandering around. Something doesn’t feel right. It really feels like the authorities have lost control. When I think back to the late 1990s, the place is unrecognisable. A lady I often meet when I walk my dog told me she no longer goes into town because she feels scared. I knew a left-wing government wouldn’t do much to halt illegal immigration, but I didn’t think it would be this bad. I am genuinely scared to think what’s going to happen over the next four years.

Cornishpotato · 01/07/2025 23:20

I go to the supermarket and the entire world is represented there. I might see one other white English person. It's extraordinary.

Spartahori · 01/07/2025 23:21

It’s not even playing the system that’s the issue. It’s the system itself. The fact that cash is given to people instead of services. I have a child with adhd / asd and pay for their schooling. I couldn’t be bothered with the exhausting process I’d have to go through to get the council to pay for it (as any parent of a SEN child can appreciate) and I can afford it. I described the situation to a charity who urged me to at least claim PIP as I’d easily get it. Why should I though? I spend my money where I choose. There is a state alternative which I could use but is dire. I’d rather the money goes to improve public services rather than handouts in cash. If a child has ADHD / ASD services and goods should be put in place to help the child. A cash handout is in my opinion a lazy cop out which in many cases isn’t spent where it is supposed to be.

Livelovebehappy · 01/07/2025 23:22

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:05

You might know one person playing the system. I don't. So immediately your statement is proved inaccurate.

There's more evidence to show that PIP is unclaimed by those with a rightful entitlement than that widespread abuse of the system occurs. You only have to look at the numbers of claims initially refused (almost 50%) and the numbers of cases at tribunal that are successful (c two out of three) to realise that whatever is wrong with the system isn't being caused by extensive fraud.

All that proves is that people might be getting decisions overturned on appeal, but doesn't prove the system is working. Why are people being declined it the first.time round, for valid reasons you'd assume, but then another group of people decide they should get it. Lots of advice online on how-to 'answer the questions' on the paperwork correctly. Ie; always respond as if it's your worst day - couldnt get out of bed for a day two months ago? Then put that down as a daily issue. Maybe the Internet is coaching people how to navigate questions to ensure their appeals are successful....

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:24

Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:14

I know several. So on average they are still accurate

They said we all know one person. I don't. Therefore we don't all know one person fraudulently claiming PIP, even if you personally know 150.

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:25

Livelovebehappy · 01/07/2025 23:22

All that proves is that people might be getting decisions overturned on appeal, but doesn't prove the system is working. Why are people being declined it the first.time round, for valid reasons you'd assume, but then another group of people decide they should get it. Lots of advice online on how-to 'answer the questions' on the paperwork correctly. Ie; always respond as if it's your worst day - couldnt get out of bed for a day two months ago? Then put that down as a daily issue. Maybe the Internet is coaching people how to navigate questions to ensure their appeals are successful....

I haven't said the system is working?

Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:28

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:24

They said we all know one person. I don't. Therefore we don't all know one person fraudulently claiming PIP, even if you personally know 150.

The point is that there are shitloads of people taking the piss. Everybody knows it. Not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

Livelovebehappy · 01/07/2025 23:30

godmum56 · 01/07/2025 22:26

I thought that when KS was chosen as leader that he's the "rebound boyfriend" Someone who could get Labour into power because he wouldn't frighten the electorate. Old tax and spend labour is still there and waiting to pounce.

Absolutely. And proven beyond doubt with today's lefty rebel mps rearing their heads. I actually applauded Starmer for tackling the difficult topic of benefits, but obviously in my naivety i didn't see the bigger picture - that getting the proposal over the line was going to be nigh on impossible, because Labour will always revert to type.

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:34

Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:28

The point is that there are shitloads of people taking the piss. Everybody knows it. Not sure why you are pretending otherwise.

Where is the proof of that?

Jennps · 01/07/2025 23:35

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:34

Where is the proof of that?

Where is the proof there are not?

Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:37

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:34

Where is the proof of that?

Because people see it in their community with their own eyes.

BIossomtoes · 01/07/2025 23:40

Jennps · 01/07/2025 23:35

Where is the proof there are not?

You can’t prove a negative.

kirbykirby · 01/07/2025 23:41

Viviennemary · 01/07/2025 22:12

It's apparently actually going to cost more. There's a surprise. Cost cutting Labour style. What an utter fiasco. They're going to get a big shock at the next election. Shame it's 4 years away. If It was now they'd be out.

Would an IMF bailout trigger an election?

Jennps · 01/07/2025 23:44

kirbykirby · 01/07/2025 23:41

Would an IMF bailout trigger an election?

Probably not. The frogs, sorry Labour supporters, will continue to be ok with being boiled.

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:45

Jennps · 01/07/2025 23:35

Where is the proof there are not?

Excuse me but it was claimed we all know a person claiming fraudulently (we don't) and that was posited as proof that there is widespread benefit fraud. It's up to whoever makes that claim to prove it, not for me to disprove it especially as the qualifying statement was demonstrably false. Obviously I can quote the DWP'S own statistics but as I said, the person who makes the assertion needs to put up or shut up.

Livelovebehappy · 02/07/2025 00:19

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 23:45

Excuse me but it was claimed we all know a person claiming fraudulently (we don't) and that was posited as proof that there is widespread benefit fraud. It's up to whoever makes that claim to prove it, not for me to disprove it especially as the qualifying statement was demonstrably false. Obviously I can quote the DWP'S own statistics but as I said, the person who makes the assertion needs to put up or shut up.

Maybe you’re so blinkered, that you don’t see it? Clearly your mind set is that there are very few fraudulent claimers, so you will only see what you want to see.

Flippityflopflip · 02/07/2025 00:47

ForWittyTealOP · 01/07/2025 21:37

If people are claiming PIP for any condition, it's because they've met the threshold for entitlement. PIP is not awarded on the basis of diagnosis but on how someone is affected by their disability or condition.

But that's the issue. Someone can get PIP based on "........ how someone is affected by their disability or condition."

If you have a physical disability, then it is more or less clear to demonstrate and prove how their disability affects them.

However, if someone has a mental health issue, then unless you have severe autism and are non verbal, are seriously mentally disabled and need constant care, or have been sectioned numerous times and are a danger to themselves or others, then often the affect of the condition is always going to be self reported, subjective. It can be self reported to GPs, hospital consultants and they may agree, based on observations of them, but primarily on what the patient tells them.

So, when there are multiple sources of information on the internet about the affect of certain conditions, when there are numerous tutorials on-line about how to fill in the forms to achieve a successful PIP claim or other benefits, then surprise, surprise, we have a rocketing welfare bill.

Many people do qualify for and need benefits, but equally there are many people who have no qualms about exaggerating or inventing a condition, if it means they can get more money, or don't have to work.

And those that say, fraud within the PIP scheme is negligible, well when there are so few checks after getting PIP and other benefits, they will show that the numbers are low. Unless you do enough inestigations, they will never establish the true scale of the matter.

So many conditions can improve, with better social intereactions, better resilience building, better support. But as is the case with many benefits, once commenced, claimants won't say that they are better and no longer entitled to it, because like us all, if we have a specific income coming in we live up to it and then can't adjust to having less money.

However, an exponentially increasing welfare bill is unsustainable and will ultimately harm the life chances of future generations as well as bankrupting the country.

The Labour MPs who rebelled are forgetting who their core voters are supposed to be. The people that labour. The people that work for a living, that pay their taxes and in the main are responsible hard working citizens. They willingly support welfare to those in temporary need and to those who can never work due to severe life impacting physical and mental disabilities who need constant care from others.

However, there is an expectation of fairness in the country's social contract with each other. It's not always achievable, but in respect of workers and adult age non-workers who can work but choose not to work or say they will only do so if specific conditions of x, y and z are met (pensioners aside), the pendulum has swung too far and it needs rebalancing.

Welfare reform is vital and shouldn't be avoided. Also, some things can't be consulted on. Will the charities supporting disabled people and those with conditions really say, oh we don't need this and that? Of course not. It's like Turkeys voting for Christmas. It doesn't happen.

Whammyyammy · 02/07/2025 00:49

This labour government has to be the worst government the world has seen. Cheers to all that voted them in

1984reallywasagoodbook · 02/07/2025 01:00

TwigletsAndRadishes · 01/07/2025 19:48

It's the same with the money they'll raise by taxing private school fees. The shrinkage in the number of private pupils and would-be potential private pupils, especially at the lower cost schools and the SEN provision end of the market, will cost the government more to provide state education for those children than the government stands to raise in revenue. And those children are going to somehow be manoeuvered into position for some of the better state school catchments and the borderline grammar places by their parents, which means disadvantaged children will lose out. It's bonkers and completely counter-productive. It will do absolutely nothing to raise standards in state schools by forcing the closure of some small independents.

But that is the point. To NOT raise the standards. Keep everyone down; malleable and unthinking. And handy that you can punish the ‘rich’ too.

Flippityflopflip · 02/07/2025 01:42

Cornishpotato · 01/07/2025 22:31

Unfortunately this goes back decades now though, at the same time Blair opened up the borders Brown introduced what was effectively corporate welfare with income tax credits.

Cue a massive influx of people from far lower paid economies who suppressed wage growth and qualified for top ups once they started families. It's still going on in one way or another and the constant call is for more of everything.

The explosion in low margin low pay business in hospitality in the past 20 years is based on this model of subsided labour. It's actually going straight into private equity returns for the wealthy and then leaving the tax payer to fund the lifetime costs of health, housing and education.

20 years ago 80 percent of these welfare immigration subsidised businesses didn't exist.
The myth is that this immigration will pay pensions when the reality is the exact opposite.

I don't think it matters any more which flavour of uniparty gets in, the public sector machinery rolling this along is so huge and dysfunctional it's unchangeable.

Politicians are just having a good guess at it all, they've no idea how it will play out but this open border global free for all is dangerously unstable now.

And then the same subsidised businesses paying minimum wages and/or only providing zero hours contracts, howl when asked to pay more employer contributions.

Then add to it that, due to right to buy, a vast swathe of council housing has ended up in the portfolios of private landlords thus pushing up private rental costs and landing councils with huge housing benefit bills of those receiving welfare, that without full reimbursement from the government and with soaring social services spending, is sending councils into bankruptcy.

Unfortunately, Blair (a landlord himself) never saw it as imporfant to rescind right to buy (I wonder why) and the Starmer government is also not prioritising this either (I wonder why, is it all those MPs of all parties that dabble in being landlords).

As others have said, governments only think about 4 or 5 year blocks of time. And when they do think longer term, things don't get done or they become hideously expensive.

Unfortunately, nothing will change as governments and politicians in power don't have any moral compasses, common sense or financial abilities for the good of the country anymore.

echt · 02/07/2025 02:28

Ablondiebutagoody · 01/07/2025 23:14

I know several. So on average they are still accurate

Still anecdata compare with stats offered by @ForWittyTealOP .

What on earth do you mean by "average"?

echt · 02/07/2025 02:29

Whammyyammy · 02/07/2025 00:49

This labour government has to be the worst government the world has seen. Cheers to all that voted them in

Oh dera. Do you know anything about world history?

Hitler? Pol Pot?Liz Truss? Boris Johnson?

echt · 02/07/2025 02:29

Dear not dera. Fecking autocorrect.

echt · 02/07/2025 02:31

1984reallywasagoodbook · 02/07/2025 01:00

But that is the point. To NOT raise the standards. Keep everyone down; malleable and unthinking. And handy that you can punish the ‘rich’ too.

Was it ever to raise standards?

I rather thought it was making business operate as business, which seems fair enough.