Where is the money going to come from to meet the UK people expectations?

[Pandersmum]

So assuming that:

• everyone who receives disability benefits needs them and may actually believe they should be entitled to more
• pensioner benefits are non negotiable and again many believe they should be greater than current
• working people (most) believe they are already taxed highly and believe they cannot be taxed any more without further impact to their feeling of unfairness and resentment of the system
• it is unreasonable to expect young people with ADHD or other similar ND disorders / mental health challenges to work, even if they have qualifications and therefore they must be financially supported by the state
• Mental health challenges are very real in any age of person and therefore they must be financially supported by the state and if in work, by their employers
• rent (whatever level) should be supported by the state because it is a basic right to have a home
• NHS treatment (& the best treatment) should be free be all, no matter how expensive it is or whatever their age because people pay their taxes
• businesses are businesses and are there to make profits for their owners - therefore they can choose which country they operate in / pay their taxes in - if they don’t like the UK tax system, they can move somewhere else
• ’in work benefits’ are necessary to support ‘low paid workers, often in essential jobs’ to gain similar amounts of financial remuneration to those on benefits
• high net worth individuals can move if they don’t like the UK tax system

So just where is the money going to come from to fund the UK population of financial expectation of what the state should provide?

Nope, pensioners paying the same taxes on the same level of incomes is all that most people want.

You mean like self employed people paying the same as those on PAYE?

majority of pensioners don't pay taxes or contribute to the economy with paying off their children's debts or doing free childcare

the majority of pensioners pay off their dcs debts and do free childcare? 🤔

Self employed don't get the same sick nor maternity pay as PAYE workers, so if anything they should pay the same NIC as pensioners, i.e. nothing!!

You’re getting desperate now.

@Taxguru has a point. I was self-employed for many years and in 1999, I got £97 ish per week for six weeks as maternity. I never bothered the GP about sick pay.

But it's worth realising that self-employment suits some people and terrifies others. I rather liked going after the work I wanted rather than being told what I was assigned to do. I liked being free to say, "I want £x for this" instead of being told I would do it for £Y. Heck, when I was offered work I didn't like, I just doubled the day rate, so if they still wanted me to do it, at least I was being paid more than normal.

Swings and roundabouts hey.

Quite so.

UK pensioners start to pay tax at the same rate as everyone else, as soon as their income exceeds the Personal Allowance.

Didn’t Simon Reeve do a documentary about Scandinavian countries. The community spirit is amazing. A mum living in a flat left her kid in the park opposite in the pram for some fresh air. All alone. That’s quite normal as everyone cares for each other. I also loved that everyone does louds of clubs. The average is 3 clubs / person. I’m in awe!

There area a number of benefits the self employed can claim in lieu off SSP and SMP: ESA, PIP, UC, ICP and MA.

I agree with the sentiment here, but I think part of what has happened is the adoption of wealth redistribution in the form of benefits for working, middle class people.

While in many ways it seems like a good idea, I suspect part of the effect has been to train a generation of people that it is normal and fine to accept state benefits even when able to support yourself. It changes the way people think about the role of the state and their own work.

I haven't seen that series but yes, the community spirit is pretty amazing in my experience (once you have 'broken in' and can speak the lingo I hasten to add!). And the pram situation twisted my melon when we first arrived. Outside cafes there will often be two or three prams with sleeping babies, the mums watching through the window and listening with a baby monitor in the pram!!!

They don't pay NIC on any of their income.
They are more likely to have savings than workers, so benefit from the extra £5k savings tax free allowance.

Level playing field please!

Nail on the head. Benefits have become a "right" rather than a "need".

Indeed, but nowhere near as generous as those for workers under PAYE and there's no direct replacement for short term SSP nor income related SMP.

I do not thing the electorate would vote for higher taxes. It’s ok to pay more tax if the person paying it benefits, otherwise I think it’s a hard no. Let’s face it. Would you seriously vote to have to keep working full time until you are 70 to pay for those who don’t work? With the undercurrent that as a working person you will be screwed over with your state pension and the money you have scrimped and saved to put aside for your retirement, will be classed as a luxury. Knowing full well that those who chose not to do without will be better off. That everything you have strived and worked hard for will be taken away from you whilst again those who chose to ‘piss their money up the wall’ will be cared for by the taxes your children are paying for. That your children are ripped off with extortionate rents and cannot afford to buy a house. Cannot afford to have children until they are older and then cannot afford to have the number of children which they see those who don’t work having.
That whilst your hard working child has to live in a tiny flat and work shitty hours to pay for it, another person gets it for free because they don’t work or work very little hours. That you cannot get a doctors appointment because you work. That A & E is full of scrubbers high on drugs or sat there with what seems like an entire family taking up space. Why are they not at work?
No, the time has come for us to adopt a more Scandinavian approach. If you receive benefits you are expected to get a job. If you don’t get a job, and let’s face it , it isn’t always easy, the state will provided one for you. You can clean the streets for a kick off.

As someone who has canvassed on the doorstep and campaigned (on the left) the WC and MC responses on this are radically different and denying that is just stupid.

MC liberals on the doorstep invariably have a million reasons why the slacker upthread should be excused and understood for not wanting to take a paid job because it was "only" paying 40% more than his benefits.

Actual working WC voters who have to live with this shit every day whilst putting in a shift, paying their taxes and building a life for their families have a radically different response from the more affluent urban liberals pontificating about “more understanding” for the able bodied healthy but workshy and raising taxes to pay for them.

Matey upthread doesn’t need "understanding" he needs telling to take the job offering 40% more than his benefits and get on with it.

You hit the nail on the head, but I don’t think it necessarily applies to the middle classes, who generally do not tend to qualify for many benefits - if any at all. I think it more applies to working to lower classes.

Its not that simple, for starters, even a NMW pays considerably more, around 400% more than a single persons UC, so incentive is there

But this thread of discussion was not about someone struggling with rent and SEN children - it was about a young able bodied adult choosing not to work because the job “only” paid 40% more than he could get on benefits. That is a slacker, however you phrase it.

I’m more than happy to support some of the various training/retraining systems through taxation but at the end of it there needs to be a willingness to take a job - which is what happens in most of Europe including the oft cited Scandianavian Utopia where you can be sent to do any job and have move to it or do community work for benefits.

You've absolutely nailed it with all those points!

Yep, nailed it.

@Daffodilsarefading

It’s ok to pay more tax if the person paying it benefits, otherwise I think it’s a hard no

I agree. Brown got away with his NIC increases because of him claiming they'd be "ring fenced" for extra NHS spending (and because a huge section of the voting population weren't affected by it despite being the highest NHS user group!).

Hang on, isn't NIC only paid on earned income, not un-earned Income?

In any case, only 11% of those over 65 are still in paid employment. Given that state pension age has risen, my guess is the number of those in receipt of state pension still holding down a job, is probably less than 10%. I am one of them. Of those, the majority are in part-time employment. I am one of them.

For those who say they want a "level playing field" regarding NI, it is a level playing field in that the policy is those in receipt of state pension don't pay NI and that's the same for future generations. If course, one can't legislate for future policy changes but that applies to everything.
The degree of what appears to be hatred of older people on this thread is pretty shocking and those that perpetrate such views should try saying it face to face to their elderly parents or grandparents!

NIC is just another tax. Everyone with income from ANY source of, say £50k should pay the same taxes on it. There's no logical reason at all why NIC should be only on wages and not on other forms of income. When it was first introduced NIC was a fixed weekly amount - "the stamp" - over the years it has morphed into an earnings related tax. If we can't extend it to ALL income, then just scrap it and increase income tax rates instead.