To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

It's not real. It's embarrassing when people claim to be non-binary.

I have a question for you OP - genuine question, not meant to be goady.

Let's say I am a female person and I prefer to wear "gender neutral" clothing (jeans, t-shirt etc) and no make-up, but will occasionally wear a dress and put some make-up on. I like traditionally masculine or neutral things e.g. science, music, sport. I don't have a problem with my female body (apart from the usual not enjoying periods as a teenager etc) but also don't particularly think of myself as girly or feminine (but not really masculine either).

My question is - does the above mean I am non-binary? Or am I only non-binary if I decide (or state) that I identify that way?

You’re entitled to your view but just to clarify, I never claimed to be the gatekeeper of who’s a “true enby.” My post was about how identify can sometimes get aestheticised in a way that flattens its meaning for those who hold it sincerely.

The idea that no one conforms to gender norms doesn’t make non-binary meaningless, it’s exactly why some people use that term to describe that disconnection. And if someone, especially a young person, finds language that helps them make sense of themselves in a world full of rigid expectations, I don’t see that as sad. I see that as self-awareness.

Right, so therefore we're pretty much all non-binary aren't we? I tend not to cry, I am pretty nurturing and I am the bread winner in my house. So a nice mix of those 'expectations'.

It doesn't matter if you identify as male or female - you simply ARE one or the other. It's an unchanging, unchangeable fact of life. Like being human. It's not identity, it's reality.

It’s not real. No one is non-binary - it’s made up nonsense. You get butch women and girly men and everything in between and that’s completely fine.

Declaring you’re non-binary is immature, narcissistic, attention-seeking nonsense. Literally no-one cares.

It's always seemed a fairly shallow kind of cosplay, which may be harmless in itself.

But unfortunately we're expected to take "them" seriously as a distinct category of humanity. Which makes as much sense as believing that "goths" are actual 19th century vampires.

More sensible to recognise it for what it is: another corny subcultural fad with highly conformist uniform and mannerisms.

I think it a growing out trend like the big brow and the older mum hype.

Still don't get it.

I have interests that would more normally be categorised as male, I have male friends, I have only ever shared houses with men.

I don't wear skirts or dresses, or makeup, nor do I like kittens or anything pink.

I've never been on a hen do or a girls weekend.

So am I not a woman? Childbirth and menopause seeks to disagree.

Not necessarily. I think it depends on the person. Some non-binary people do see their identity as a way of challenging or expanding rigid gender norms, just not within the binary framework of “woman” or “man.” For others, the binary categories simply never fit.

It’s not always about rejecting being a man or a woman out of discomfort with stereotypes, it can also be about having an internal sense of self that exists outside that structure altogether. So rather than being regressive, for many it’s actually a refusal to be boxed in by expectations full stop.

It's another thing to be part of. Years ago, so many people were claiming to be bi polar, allergic [then stuffing themselves with the allegen], gay and various things including identifying as certain animals.
We've had various sexual types, binary types and now there is bloody trans shite.
Such a load of bollocks. I don't care if someone wants to get it going with a divers suit, complete snorkel and oxygen tank and have wild sex with a rubbish bin. Just not interested so why do they think anyone else wants to know what they get up to behind closed doors ?
The whole lot can take it to a desert island in the middle of an ocean with no communication and get on with it.
Rant over.

Maybe I’m a thickie but I still can’t really get my head around the idea of people having an internal gender identity which we often see described as ‘a sense of themselves as male or female’.

This is just meaningless to me. I don’t have a ‘sense of myself’ as male or female. I have the knowledge that I am female, and I have had that knowledge since I was a little girl.

I don’t perform femininity- I am not interested in shopping, clothes, make-up or shaving my legs. I don’t do ‘girls nights out’ or spa days or drink wine or cocktails. But I am also not particularly masculine. I regularly put the bins out and I enjoy lifting weights but am no good at plumbing or mechanics and I hate football.

How do I find out what my gender identity is?

I think you have to be really into categorising and labelling things in order to bother being officially non-binary.

Bang on the money 100%

(My question is for the OP really as it is the OP that mentioned an internal sense of self.)

It's pretty rude to suggest that your own personality, wrapped up in an identity bow, is beyond regressive stereotypes when it is one entirely forged on the premise that other people are trapped in these narratives.

Meanwhile, your normie, is just going about their day, not fitting into a box and quietly making a mockery of gender by just getting on with shit in their own way.

So non-binary is something that is entirely individual? Like a personality perhaps....?! I don't see how you can have a category of 'identity' (whatever identity means) that you can't define because it entirely depends on the person and their own personal definition of it. It just makes no sense.

Is this how we ended up with a billion different genders?

Put simply I dont give a toss what label anyone chooses to use whether that's non-binary, vegan or whatever is currently cool. I just wish they'd shut up about it.

Not goady at all - it’s a really good question. What you’ve described sounds more like gender expression - the way someone dresses, behaves, or engages with interests that may be stereotypically labelled as “masculine” or “feminine”. That doesn’t automatically mean someone is non-binary.

Being non-binary is about gender identity - how someone internally understands and experiences their own gender. For some people, that identity doesn’t sit fully with “woman” or “man”, even if they’re comfortable with their body or how they present.

So no - wearing jeans, liking science, or not being feminine doesn’t make someone non-binary. You’d only be non-binary if that’s the identity that feels true for you.

My 9yo dd asked me a few weeks ago ‘mummy why do people say they are trans to wear clothes of the opposite gender when everyone knows they can just wear whatever they want?’ - well that’s exactly my question

i think there’s a reason why it’s largely teenagers/young adults coming out with this stuff, and it’s the same reason why teens have always identified as this that and the other (goths, punks etc etc) - your personality and brain is not fully developed at this age so you experiment by identifying as various things because you can’t identify as ‘you’ because you don’t know who ‘you’ is.

Whereas a fully mature adult with a stable personality knows that they can be female, interested in football, history, rock music and romantic drama to name a few but it not have any impact whatsoever on how they dress or what hairstyle they have - literally my appearance gives no statement whatsoever on who I am, and I’m fine with that.

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Maybe I’m a thickie but I still can’t really get my head around the idea of people having an internal gender identity which we often see described as ‘a sense of themselves as male or female

I don't think anyone of sound mind gives it a second thought, I think being 'non binary' is a cover for some other psychological issue.

@ByPoliteExpert

My post was about how identify can sometimes get aestheticised in a way that flattens its meaning for those who hold it sincerely.

If you sincerely hold a belief then how can it be 'flattened' by somebody else not having the same sincerity as you? Or do you mean, 'Nobody can tell how speshul us true non-binaries are anymore because it is mainstream'

Time to find a new niche identity hobby?

Ok - just so I'm clear then, the only people who are non-binary are the people who FEEL like they are? Is that the only thing they have in common with each other, that enables them to be labelled/categorised as 'non-binary'? That they feel non-binary? Does that mean that if I woke up tomorrow and realised I felt non-binary, but changed nothing at all about myself, I could be part of the non-binary category purely because I say I feel like I am?

Also, if gender is socially constructed and changes, how can anyone know what their own gender is?

So what?