To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

I don’t want to cause distress to Depresso as it sounds like her and her DC have been struggling a lot, so my comment is made with compassion.

I hate this insidious ideology so much. I also have friends who have now so greatly limited their social and familial circles in an attempt to support their son. His fragility around the slightest nod to reality has had them walking on eggshells for years now. His DF is deep to alcoholism, his DM health is poorly. They used to be so full of life and fun. Now, they’ve drawn the smallest boundary around themselves and the amount of money lost to useless therapists and gender “care” is criminal (they are in the states so pay out of pocket). I hate what this has done to their family. Gender ideology isolates and depresses.

Of course 'non-binary' is a fashion statement. If it were possible to time travel back just a few years no-one you mentioned it to would have the faintest idea what you were talking about. Perhaps a contagion would be a better description of it. I wonder who patient zero is? I imagine there are as many different reasons though as there are adopters. I don't care about the narcissists, pick mes, but the ones who use the label because of poor mental health. If it helps them and it's something they hold inside without too much of a care as to whether others even bother with their idea of themselves, as seems to be the case described by a pp. If it doesn't lead to harmful, unnecessary, irreversible surgeries, I can't see the problem. I may think it's nonsense but people do stuff all the time that I can't see the point of. That's a me problem. However, when it doesn't help but what it does do is terminate help; the anorexic you have to agree is fat is often given as a comparison.

What kind of mental health support do you envisage is available to an adult?They are 20 so just see the GP for their antidepressants.

I can see why it appears as accepting the lesser of 2 evils, but it doesn't feel like that me. It's more that over the last 7ish years, I've come to accept my DC does have a gender identity that doesn't align with their biological sex. My DC has also matured and the conversation around non-binary was between us - no bombshell dropped via a Service Provider - and was measured and reasonable.

I don't know what you mean by bought into? I just don't align with the "taking one for the team" (rejecting my DCs gender identity) for the greater good of society. I accept I am considered to be causing harm to others by failing in this duty I have. I don't care.

I don't consider it to be defensive to list what the majority of posts on here describe a non-binary person to be. You are of course entitled to feel I am, and I respect your feelings on it.

I can assure you I'm not distressed. You're of course entitled to believe I am, and I respect your feelings.

To clarify, our circle being very small predates the gender identity by some 9 ish years. My DC is disabled and had 1:1 support at school and eventually transport to a more specialist provision. This caused other parents to be unhappy, as they felt my DC wasn't deserving of extra support and it wasn't fair that their DC, didn't get it. It started in preschool as my DC had extra transition visits.

Since leaving compulsory school age education, our lives have been infinitely better. I'm not walking on eggshells nor living in fear of a Service Provider trying to exert control over us. It's gloriously peaceful.

Life still happens, of course. Very few people outside of our small circle would be aware that we've had major issues completely unrelated to the gender identity. So it would be easy to assume I look like shit because of my DC. But it's not the case at all.

Thanks for replying

Re. mental health support - counselling? therapy? psychiatric treatment? support groups? I am aware the NHS is far from ideal for this, but there are other options too. You described your (adult) child as someone vulnerable, I personally wouldn't be happy with getting antidepressants from a GP and doing nothing else.

I have come to accept that my DC has a gender identity that does not align with their biological sex.

This is what I meant when I said you bought into it. (It being gender ideology), which to me is a step further than simply supporting your child.

To be honest, I think I just cannot get my head around a logical explanation for NB-ness - what is it about your child that does not align with their biological sex? And align how?

The antidepressants were prescribed by a psychiatrist when my DC was under CAMHS. From 18, the GP took over the medication reviews. This is pretty standard. DC doesn't want to have any counselling or therapy.

I presume you're aware that even under 16, a young person can have the right to make choices about things like therapy, if they are deemed to have capacity.

Over 16, it is assumed the young person has capacity unless there is proof otherwise.

So it doesn't matter if you'd not be happy with it, if the young person doesn't want treatment, it can't be forced.

Or do you think a non-binary gender identity would be reason enough for them to be detained under the Mental Health Act? Do you have any experience of the facilities that treat young people who are detained?

And tbh, my experience of the NHS largely seems to be affirming of trans identities, so I'm not sure, even if they were forcibly taken away for treatment, that the outcome would result in my DC being cured of gender dysphoria.

It's simple for me; my DC's mental health and happiness has noticeable improved. More engagement in activities. I know if I refused to affirm, their well-being would decline. And that's sufficient for me to accept my DC has a non-binary gender identity.

I have been told on this thread that I'm feeling things that I'm not; I'm angry, distressed, hostile. I don't expect anyone to understand why my DC feels the way they do, and I'm not here to try and change anyone’s mind. I've just given an honest account of our situation and refuting the position that all NBs are attention-seeking narcissists.

I don’t think people have tried to tell you what you are feeling, they were more observations on the feelings you seemed to be expressing, also leaking out as hostility at times. PPs can only go by what you have told us, even if you didn’t mean to.

I am sorry that you and your child have suffered so much, especially at the hands of professionals who should be helping. Unfortunately, the solution these ‘professionals’ have sold your child (by affirming that he is indeed non binary) is a dud. It’s good that it has appeared to help DC and maybe that will be enough of a sticking plaster to tide him over until he finds his own peace but at some point they are going to have to admit that they lied to him and he does have a sex especially if he needs some sex based treatment or examination.

I am saying this with great sympathy for you and your child but I hope you realise that no one can escape their biological reality and your DC will have to deal with that at some point.

You have misunderstood; no professionals were involved in affirming the non-binary identity. They were in their last year of college when they told us, and pretty much the last term. There were no other service providers involved at that point.

I don't consider affirming my DCs non-binary identity to be lying to them. I do believe their account of their feelings and that's why I affirm it.

What do you mean they can't escape their biological reality? What does that entail that would require being dealt with? What kind of sex based treatment or examination do you think would be an issue?

Claiming to be non-binary is of course trying to deny biological reality - your DC is either male or female, and that’s just a fact. Encouraging disassociation from material reality seems to me to never be a good idea.

“I do believe their account of their feelings and that's why I affirm it.”

Can you please clarify exactly what your son has told you what those feelings are?

Yes. But does it matter?
Literally does not affect anyone if someone needs a label.

But it does if society is expected to accomodate that label to allow people to access provisions that are not designated for them.

Oh ok, I thought you mentioned upthread about something to do with NHS staff affirming something but I haven’t got time to go back and check. My memory isn’t what it used to be I’m afraid.

Well, sex has to be in our medical notes as pretty much every doctor prescribed medicine has dosage calculations based on sex. Health/weight monitoring calculations are based on our sex There are various health checks/red flags for health conditions that are based on sex. Giving blood requires a record of the sex of the donor. I guess you could hope that the medic doesn’t happen to mention it in passing but it’s not a given. I know that currently the NHS policy is to allow male non binary people to choose either male or female wards but that policy will have to change very soon so in the event of a hospital admission, again, sex will be a factor.

I’m getting muddled now too, MeDepresso. Earlier in this thread you said this:

When my DC announced they were trans age 13, it was service providers who immediately affirmed. Without exception these professionals were white, middle-class women. They were not being pressured from above and were actually going against the policies at the time. We were threatened with social services and it generally caused huge conflict between us and our child. I would say those service providers harmed me over a sustained period

So whoever these service providers were, they affirmed your DC. And then did they threaten you with social services because you wouldn’t confirm the trans identity?

This should clear up the confusion

Thank you - it does 😊

You have misunderstood; no professionals were involved in affirming the non-binary identity.

Sorry, I’m still a bit confused. Are you not counting teachers and the OT as professionals? Or were they affirming a different identity?

I'm not sure if this is another "gotcha" attempt, but that was when my child had a transgirl identity, which we did not affirm at home.

At around 17, DC told us they identified as non-binary, which after discussions with them, we decided to affirm and have ever since. They actually told their college a few weeks after telling us.

I've just gone back and checked my emails from that time, as this thread is making me doubt my recollection of events now. Oh and DC was just turned 18, but had been identifying as NB with their friends for a few months prior to that.

I don't care enough to care.

NB is complete nonsense.
It’s a way for socially awkward people to try to make themselves feel special.
They get to be in a “community” and expect special words and privileges, and control other people’s speech, thought and actions.

I applaud anyone who rejects gender stereotypes but the act of refusing to wear a skirt does not mean you stop being a woman.

I was genuinely asking because I was confused by what you said so thank you for answering.

We may be looking at this in a slightly different way. You said that no professionals affirmed your sons identity but you were meaning the non binary identity specifically, but they did originally affirm when he was 13 that he wasn’t really a boy and was a transgirl?

So at 13 they moved him down the pathway to where he is now?

Ask yourself; Why would anyone "choose" a sexual orientation or preference that immediately causes them to be treated horribly, to be demeaned and mocked and made fun of, and to be treated like a lesser human being??? The vindictive unpleasantness in these comments underscores the hostility that is out there for people who are not "typical" In terms of their gender and sexuality. No one would "choose" to subject themselves to that level of hate and animosity. So, perhaps consider that for people who do describe themselves in that way it's actually how they feel and it's actually who they are? There's no benefit to them in saying so - in fact quite the opposite. So maybe give them the benefit of the doubt and be kind. Oh, and be grateful that you aren't having to deal with those kinds of issues that clearly would make you the brunt of all manner of horrible online comments.

What "provisions" - you mean a loo? Presumably you don't care if a lesbian uses the ladies loos, so why is it a problem if someone who is "non-binary" uses those loos? The loos are all in separate cubicles, so what's the problem? Are you in the habit of checking the genitalia of the people who use the loo at the same time as you do? If so then you are the one who has the problem, not them.

Men can't use women's loos. Whether the man says he's 'nonbinary' is immaterial.

Lesbians are women, I don't see what on earth you're bringing them into it for.

It's rude, offensive, and arrogant to tell other people to 'be kind'. Quite ironic, really.