To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

I have NC for this for obvious reasons.

I have an adult DS (late 20s and not at all fashion conscious) who recently admitted to me that he thinks he might be agender or non-binary. He has not told anyone else, has begged me not to tell anyone else (even his dad or siblings) and does not want to change his name or pronouns because he's very embarrassed about the whole thing. The way he described it to me was "I don't really like being male, but I don't think I want to be female either." He is struggling for a way to describe what he is but it's irrelevant in a way, as he doesn't want anyone to know. Apparently he doesn't like any of the "male looking" features of his appearance like being tall, having broad shoulders, having a square jawline, etc. Curiously having male genitals doesn't bother him as much, he says because he doesn't see them all the time. I asked if there's any possibility it's really adulthood he doesn't like, since all the characteristics he specifically dislikes are the ones that arrived during his teenage years. He thinks it's a possibility - he has struggled with his confidence for pretty much his entire adulthood.

My point is - if he is non-binary, he certainly isn't doing it to impress anybody else. He is desperate not to let anybody find out. He has had a new job recently and somebody there said something a bit transphobic (in a jokey way). Because of that, he didn't want to go to Pride this year (which he usually did) in case anyone from work saw him and took the piss, even though he would have been presenting as male with maybe just a wristband or something. I can believe some people try on a non-binary persona for various reasons but please don't assume everyone is trying it on.

“I suppose in a world of billions of people, there are millions of of ways to visualise and present yourself to the world as an individual.”

There is. I agree. It is called living in a world and not accepting stereotypes.

Which doesn’t mean you have to reject the reality of the sex your body is and have any expectations, individually or as a group, that society has to act as if your philosophical belief is based in material reality when it is not.

So what is the criteria to be non binary?

There is only one. It is for someone to consider themself to be non-binary. That is the extent of it.

And when it comes to other people, then all it takes is an assertion from someone that they're non-binary. Because, being someone's internal perception of themself, there's no way to test it.

I mean, even those supportive of it have surely got to admit its vague as fuck.

Exactly.
In fact, "you can continue sexualising and treating WOMEN badly, as I am not one of THEM"

Oh yes gender benders, I forgot about that. There’s always been androgeny but it has never been as extreme and loaded as it is now. We used to use the word Unisex as well but people weren't using it as a weapon. Girls could be tomboys, in the 70/80s guys could wear make-up, it’s not new but somewhere something went wrong.

As far as what non-binary means, for those who have some sort of genuine belief about having this state, rather than simply trying it on, because in a vague sense it's not so much a thing as people seeking to escape an actual thing, their own sex, then it's not possible for it to have any coherent meaning because different people will have their own mindsets of how they're doing their escaping.

It's a label to apply to a state of mind where no two people will have the same state of mind.

My friend is defining what womanhood means for her. At the moment, for complex reasons, including trauma, she doesn’t want to be described by the stereotypical boundaries of ‘woman’. That’s entirely up to her, and quite a feminist action

Right - and all other women like me are just fine and dandy with being “described by the stereotypical boundaries of ‘woman’”, are we? Can you not see how stupid and insulting that is?

A woman is simply an adult female human being - like your friend. Now, gender imposes stereotypes and expectations on women (female people) but what’s feminist and radical is to ignore and fight against those NOT to say that because you don’t want to comply with them that you’re not a woman. By saying that she’s ‘not a woman’, she’s actually confirming and agreeing with those stereotypes!

Sure. She has no expectations of the kind.

Agreed, but she’s doing what feels right for her right now.

She can do what she likes, but it’s sad that she can’t see that she’s actually accepting what she thinks she’s rejecting. Feminism is so much more than just doing what you want. I don’t see her actions as radical or feminist. I hope that she can move on and begin to heal from her trauma and see that.

This. Every word.

Feminism is for women. If she is a woman who denies being a woman, that is clearly not a feminist action.

If she was a woman who rejected sex based stereotypes while still being a woman - THAT is feminist.

Then why has she declared that she is non-binary?

How can she be non-binary and not “reject the reality of the sex her body is and have any expectations, individually or as a group, that society has to act as if her philosophical belief is based in material reality when it is not.”

Sounds like an apophatic thing.

Which may be interesting to an extent, on an individual level, but not very useful as a societal category.

Yes, that's an excellent post.

The extreme individualism of 'identity' is probably quite telling of how atomised and alienated our society has become.

The only collective would appear to be in what is rejected, ('queer' is claimed to be nothing to do with being same sex attracted, only in a reaction to 'heteronormativity'), but there is no positive group identity to replace what has been rejected.

It’s all a load of coswallop.

It sounds very much like your son is trying this on. He sounds frustrated with certain norms and is comparing himself to his peers, so is looking for ways to define himself. It’s good you are trying to guide the conversation to help him reason with the ideas he’s contemplating, but just because he’s not being ostentatious (thank goodness) doesn’t mean he’s not trying on this identity which is currently part of the Zeitgeist. It’s normal for him to be looking for answers to his feelings. However, as other posters have stated, the concept of non-binary is both vague and incoherent, so hopefully he will see that soon. But it is likely he’s very much searching to find himself, trying on many hats, as we used to say, which is common among young adults.

Is it a secret? If not, can you share?

As PP have noted, it was never anything other than a fashion statement, often embraced by professional victims.

And what she’s doing is anti-feminist.

She’s giving legitimacy to gender stereotypes by saying “yes, those things are for women. Not for me, though, because I reject the label Woman.”

Rejecting the oppressive and damaging stereotypes and expectations of women as a sex is brave and feminist… right up to the point your friend goes all “Do it to Julia” and throws the rest of us under the gender bus.

I have been thinking more on this.

I think it might be irrelevant to the wider society as to what your friends intention is or isn’t.

By declaring that she has a non-binary identity, there is an expectation that goes with such a declaration. Again, whether that is her intention or not. It is actually not a neutral identity that she believes fits her belief. No matter what some posters believe when they declare that it is harmless or just a cultural aspect.

While every person has their own individual expectations / demands, declaring that she is non-binary really does mean she has joined herself to a group with group expectations. We know what they are as per the campaign groups that support these groups and negotiate the policies that are associated with that group.

She has chosen a transgender identity. She has not chosen to be merely gender non-conforming but remaining in the sex category she materially belongs too. They are different things and come with very different associated expectations and group demands on society.

Just because someone thinks they can make this choice and it is is harmless, or just something that they can pick or choose aspects of, doesn’t remove the very significant societal demands that have been made by that group.

I think one of the things I dislike about non-binary is that it puts everyone else in a box.

For a small number of people to be non-binary, everyone else must be "binary". A boring old gender-conforming stereotype-loving man or woman.

Yeah, I'm not into engaging with childish sarcasm. Crack on elsewhere. If you read our conversation, you'd be well aware that 'secrecy' formed no part of it.

@Helleofabore

I have been thinking more on this.
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I think it might be irrelevant to the wider society as to what your friends intention is or isn’t.

There was no need for you to think more on it, as my friend’s Intention and situation is irrelevant not only to wider society but to you. Her decisions are hers alone. As I said earlier, she doesn’t impel anyone to use pronouns, etc. The primary person affected by her decisions is herself.