To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

I commented on the specific scenario you gave that well-meaning parents are causing harm to service providers as someone may get lectured about pronouns.

I simply said that service providers have caused me a lot of harm over an ongoing period of years. Because they knew better than me, just like you know better than me now.

You think it's wrong of parents and loved ones to affirm non-binary identities, because of the harm it causes others.

So if you don't think parents should turn their backs on their children, what do you think is a likely outcome? Do you think the child, when reaching adulthood, would maintain a relationship with their family?

I lived in that state of conflict for over 3 years. I am at peace with the non-binary identity, and I'm not going to sacrifice my relationship with my child because the likes of you think I should for the greater good of society.

Well thank you for asking me.

I think each family will have to face a different scenario. I would hope extensive mental health support would be given but I also understand how that may not be available. The support should also be not ideological but fully exploratory and wide ranging. I know from my own search that this is time consuming and sometimes difficult to find.

I also think and have seen personally that parents can still maintain their own boundaries around the degree to which a teenager is ‘affirmed’. It is also very possible that parents can have an understanding of the harm to individuals and to wider society of the reality of their child’s decisions and their own. It is fucking tough and uncomfortable though.

Again, you have fully personalised my posts. I could have a good guess as to why but in the end it doesn’t matter why. Because it doesn’t change the reality of what has and is happening.

“I simply said that service providers have caused me a lot of harm over an ongoing period of years. Because they knew better than me, just like you know better than me now.”

Have I disagreed that you have been harmed? I don’t believe I have. When you say I ‘know better that you’, what are you referring to? What is it that you think I know better than you?

As I said, who is the arbitrator of when harm has reached a point for it to be worthy of being considered and discussed as harm?

If you mean that I see the larger impacts and I comment on that? Yes. I do. Do I think I know better than you can? I haven’t indicated at all the amount of knowledge I think you have and don’t have, nor the depth to which you have analysed it and evaluated it, despite the repeated accusations.

Perhaps if you’d like to have a discussion you could point out where you disagree with me.

Please enlighten me on why I have fully personalised my replies to you.

You cannot force a teenager to engage in therapy. There's absolutely no way my DC would, even when the Service Providers were pushing referrals to the Tavistock, my DC had no interest in pursuing it. But I'm guessing my reply is "too personal" because it doesn't fit your solution.

So you don't think you know better than me then? Because all your posts say it's wrong to affirm a non-binary identity, whatever the situation. I do not agree with that for my child and me. Life is infinitely better for all of us.

OK fine, you "win" on the harm. You decide what is harmful and what isn't.

What I do know for sure, is I don't care what expectations people like you have of people like me.

“Please enlighten me on why I have fully personalised my replies to you.”

As in you seem to have taken my posts as a personal attack. You have repeatedly used phrases such as “just like you know better than me now.” There are a few in your posts.

“You cannot force a teenager to engage in therapy. There's absolutely no way my DC would, even when the Service Providers were pushing referrals to the Tavistock, my DC had no interest in pursuing it. But I'm guessing my reply is "too personal" because it doesn't fit your solution.”

I am fully aware you cannot force a teenager to engage in therapy.

“OK fine, you "win" on the harm. You decide what is harmful and what isn't.”

No sorry. It is not ‘me’ winning and I am actually not engaged in a battle with you. I pointed out that there is no arbitrator of harm as to the worthiness of discussion of harm. And I am responding to posts on this thread with my own opinions. It is a discussion thread.

But you have again taken my post as attacking you.

I disagree that it hasn’t got us very far. It did a while ago. Girls/woman were starting to be treated more equally. Compared to the previous generations when women were often disregarded, we were beginning to taste being treated as full and equal human beings. We were stepping away from silly stereotypes. And then we regressed and people suddenly started looking to those fading stereotypes and measuring themselves by them.

Yes, gender stereotypes are real, and they’re often harmful, especially towards women. So, why would anyone think it was a great idea to prioritise them again?

I don’t know how old you are (and I’m not asking) but do you not remember the 80s/90s when the young started to become more gender non-conforming? I remember laughing at my mum, when she mistook a female friend of mine for a boy because she was “wearing boys’ clothes”. That was the new way, as you refer to it - then, back in the 80s/90s. Now we’ve regressed.

Anyone calling themselves non-binary is, whether they realise it or not, validating and approving of those stereotypes - because they’ve sat there and measured themselves by them, then categorised themselves accordingly, whereas most people are aware of the stereotypes but certainly don’t live their life by them.

I don't feel attacked.

You have said it's wrong to affirm non-binary identities due to the harm ot causes others.

I have a non-binary child (adult) and I disagree and I have responded to your posts.

If you only want to hear views that support/congratulate you, then just say.

I'm aware you're trying to deconstruct all my posts as some kind of "gotcha". It's something that happens frequently on MN.

OK let me rephrase re who the arbitrator of harm is. I don't care.

I'm not clever or eloquent. I am however, entitled to share my experience, thoughts and views as the parent of a non-binary child, though I do appreciate you will not agree with them and may not wish to hear them either.

As I said in my original posted reply to you, that is great that you have come to your considered decision. I also answers as to how I understand the priority is to support your child.

And I understand that you don’t care. Fine. It is somewhat irrelevant to material reality whether you care or not. Material reality will abide anyway whatever we choose to believe.

I do believe it is harmful to support non-binary identities with language and policy changes. Yes. I also know that some people do this because they feel they have little choice.

Do you think that society should use the language that your child wants people to use for their individual needs?

Do you think that policies should allow male people above about 8 years old to access any female single sex provisions?

“I also answers as to how I understand the priority is to support your child.”

answers should be acknowledged, sorry.

I really do not understand your response on the arbitrator of harm.

My DC understands they have a legal name and assumptions will be made about pronouns. They don't interact much with society, but when we have the occasional appointment,I explain that my DC prefers a different name to their legal name (my DC is too anxious to speak outside a very small circle of people), and what their preferred pronouns are. I don't always get the pronouns right and it's never been an issue. I do expect their preferred name to be used, though.

Ok. So I take it then that you don’t believe that society should change language to suit your child? And that then applies to any other person who makes demands that others use language to suit their belief about themselves?

I would expect most people would use preferred names, it is not unusual to do this for anyone who has a nickname or name change or preferred version of their name. That is not in question.

What would happen or does happen if you didn’t use the language child wants, by the way?

What do you think should happen if a person does demand that everyone changes their language to suit their belief about their identity when it doesn’t reflect material reality?

Do you think that any policies should allow male people above about 8 years old to access any female single sex provisions?

You can take it anyway you want, I'm only speaking on my situation with my DC. I genuinely do not care about society as a whole. My DC is disabled and society treats them appalling. We've never had anyone refuse to use the preferred names or pronouns though.

If we went back to calling them their legal name intentionally? Probably stop interacting with us, which would mean withdrawing from the small amount of outside the home activities. They'd lively become very depressed again and taking their own life wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibilities.

I don't know what you mean by material reality. But as I've said my DC is unable to make "demands" on others outside of a very small circle.

I genuinely do not care about society as a whole.

Sounds like you're in a very dark and difficult place, MeDepresso. I'm sorry.

On the contrary, it's very light and peaceful

Hence you 'do not care about society'? That really doesn't sound light and peaceful to me, but that's okay.

I understand you are still angry about being threatened with social services. It can't have been easy, and it really sounds like you've had a long and difficult path. And you are clearly still angry with anyone who fails to 'affirm' your son's wishes, and the women on here, presumably for failing to respect the narrative.

We do what we can to protect those we love. We're all doing our best, and I know it's not easy sometimes. But we're all affected by what each other chooses to do. Feminists have spent many years talking about women, women's rights, how to make the world a safer, better, and easier place for women.

Some men choosing to identify differently is not something that women are going to stop discussing in order to avoid upsetting men, nor the women who care for them. We will still discuss men and men's actions, whatever those men choose to call themselves. It's not directed at your child personally, but none of us are outwith society. We're all in it together.

Sorry, I poorly worded that question about language. I didn’t mean revert back to birth name.

If you, as a parent, didn’t use non binary pronouns and used gendered words for them. What do you think your child would do if anyone else didn’t use non binary pronouns and used gendered words in relation to them?

It does sound like your situation is highly complex and difficult.

By material reality, I mean that transgender identities are ones that have no biological markers. The only commonality they have is that a person holds a philosophical belief about themselves being either the opposite sex or not identifying as having a sex category. It is a belief.

My point is what other groups of people with philosophical beliefs have their language demands affirmed by society to the degree that it is written into policies that the language must be used?

Adding to that, especially where there are direct consequences for not complying with that person’s / group’s belief through use of language, either emotionally or policy led consequences. Are there any of group that you can think of where these language demands are written into policies and such?

I will ask again though because I want to understand more of where you are coming from, do you think that any policies should allow male people above about 8 years old to access any female single sex provisions?

Not ‘of’ ‘other’. Auto correct is having a great time on my phone today. Apologies.

I'm not angry, sorry if I've given that impression.

Yes the school/NHS/social services/Tavistock time was really hard. We got through it and I learned a lot about word salads and posturing.

I don't know anyone who doesn't affirm my child's non-binary identity. Our circle is very small and it serves us well. I wouldn't be "angry" I'd just not deal with that person again. Which presumably they'd be mutually happy about so win/win.

Society really does not care about my family and we're really not all in it together. That suits us fine and there's no bitterness here. I usually avoid these threads but I've had time this week. According to this thread my child is narcissistic, attention-seeking, pierced, definitely wears nail polish, and constantly announces their gender identity.

It's been enlightening

Society really does not care about my family and we're really not all in it together. That suits us fine and there's no bitterness here.

I'm not meaning this personally, but 'society' by its nature includes everyone. I don't mean 'includes' in a necessarily happy clappy joyful way, but we all affect each other and are connected, by various many means. 'Society' is in the sense I mean not necessarily a positive thing, nor negative, it's neutral. Just the fact that we all live in the world together, are bound by laws, rules, and affected by others' behaviour and choices.

Even if we run away to live in the woods and forage for roots and berries we remain part of society; just people living an unusual lifestyle within it.

You really do come across as hostile and bitter, I'm sorry. And I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way. I do understand the idea of wanting to opt out of society. But its no more possible than 'opting out' of the human race. It does seem to evoke a similar parallel of wanting to 'opt out' of being the sex one is born.

You only need to look at the so-called celebs who label themselves non-binary to know that it is attention-seeking bullshit.

There'll be another bandwagon along soon!

I don't feel bitter and I don't think I've been hostile, but you're free to interpret my words any way you wish.

OK I accept I live in a society. I really don't care about it, though. There's no need to feel sorry for me either, but they're your feelings so I respect your right to do so.

If everyone suddenly went back to always using male pronouns, they'd say ask via text or email what this change was about. It would then likely lead to the same scenario of isolation, depression and ultimately taking their own life. I'm not saying that it would happen at a fast pace, I'm talking of a gradual decline.

Thank you for the answer.

@MeDepresso does your child have any mental health support at the moment?

From your posts, it seems to me that you have opted from the lesser or two evils? I can understand that compared to transitioning, adopting an "NB identity" is preferable. I would do the same.
But what I find odd is that you seem to have bought this identity issue too?

Also, while many (most?) posts focus on narcissism and attention seeking as the main drives, many others do mention mental health issues and autism. No need to be defensive