To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

And I disagree that it is irrelevant to the wider society. And I think it is a denial of the truth in the case of gender identities to say they don't impact other people.

It was you that wrote it was irrelevant.

And I’m not discussing other people. I’m only referring to the person I know, and by the way she conducts herself, she doesn’t bother anyone.

Apologies. I should have been clearer.

The intention is irrelevant. The act is not irrelevant to wider society is my point. As I mentioned in my post.

Yes. I completely understand that you are only talking about your friend. what I dont understand is how this identity has no impact at all to anyone else. So, people in her family and friends feel absolutely no emotional need to use non binary pronouns? None at all. Not even just to keep her happy ?

And no social or work or any situation where she mentions that she is non binary so not one person feels the need to accommodate that identity?

She hasn’t listed her identity for any organisation, has no identity document changed? Nothing?

Nothing dramatic that I’m aware of, no. If anyone does call her ‘she’ or ‘her’ by mistake, she doesn’t seem too concerned by it. The end result is that people do make an effort.

I don’t know about organisations, etc. I don’t think she has changed names.

So, you are only going by your personal interactions and don’t actually know much more. And you don’t see any person changing the language to use non conventional language as impact on others.

Ok. Thanks.

You know less, in this particular circumstance at least. And of course I’m going by personal interactions with my friend - what else would I use?

I don’t require your condescension, thanks. I shared an experience of my friend to this thread. I apologise if it doesn’t fit how you think a non-binary person should behave, but it is what it is.

I was at a work conference and one of the four speakers got up and introduced himself (very obviously male, stubble, short hair, broad shoulders, in a suit) and announced that he is the first non-binary [insert job role here] and that's why he is wearing eyeshadow.

It really felt so, so full of pretence. He is clearly a man, dressing and behaving "like a man" whatever that means and thinks that wearing a bit of green eyeshadow somehow makes him less male.

It was also so incongruous to the context. No one else got up and announced their sexual oritentation/identity/religion before speaking. And my first thought was how do you know you're the first? If we're meant to believe that non-binary people have always existed how can he proclaim to be the first?!

He then talked a lot about authenticity and it felt so shallow because he is so obviously presenting himself as something he isn't.

VoulezVous before I write this I'll say I agree that your friend has every right to identify as non-binary and that one person doing this isn't going to affect society too much. I also know a few non-binary people who are also lovely.

However I'm just going to leave this here as a thought experiment. What would it mean for the individual and for society?

I’m acquainted with a lovely young black woman who identifies as "non-race". She has dark skin and afro hair which she sometimes wears in braids. She also has experienced significant racial abuse in her past. She’s rejecting, inwardly, being black as it can lead to racism, and doing what feels right to her. It’s quite a strong action for the black community, really, if a radical one.

👏🏻👏🏻

its so blatantly retrograde, isn't it?
yet when we replace it with women and sexism everything becomes blurry allegedly

It's so predictable. The people who believe or respect or cheerlead non-binary identities can never, ever define it. And when asked to explain, they get angry, call people names, get defensive and have a superior attitude that they don't need to explain themselves. We are just supposed to accept nonsensical statements. Absurd and tiring.

There are. You think it's a child's fad but you've no idea, have you. And many don't shout about it either. Or choose not to when not in comfortable places/company. A lot of adult enbies, and I've met or know many amab enbies, it's not just people born female.

You’re absolutely right that androgyny is a look: clothing, hair, style. But, non-binary is also just a set of ideas about presentation and feelings, not an objective sexed reality. The term “non-binary” claims to be a gender identity “outside” male or female—but male and female are not genders, they are sexes. Humans are sexually dimorphic mammals. We’re born either male or female (with rare disorders of sexual development that are still classified medically as variations of male or female biology).

So what does “non-binary” actually mean in practice? People might feel uncomfortable with stereotypes for men or women, or prefer androgynous clothes, or reject social expectations of their sex (masculinity and femininity). That’s totally valid. But it doesn’t create a new sex or a new biological category. It’s simply a personality or aesthetic preference.

We don’t need to invent new “genders” or pronouns to explain why some women hate heels or why some men love painting their nails. Those are human choices, not evidence that someone is a whole new category of person. Historically, plenty of men and women have lived outside gender norms without claiming a different identity. All were simply men or women refusing the boxes society shoved them into based on their sex.

So, non-binary is a social label, not an objective reality. It’s no different from saying: “I’m goth”. It’s a way to express personal style and feelings, but it can’t change biological sex or create a third human sex category. People should dress or live however they want. We shouldn’t pretend that “non-binary” describes a scientifically real or universal category of humanity.

Absolutely.

“We are just supposed to accept nonsensical statements. Absurd and tiring.”

Some people also need to detach the individual from the group so that they can use that person as a reference point that they can support. Without having to acknowledge the wider consequences of what they are doing. It is important to them to focus on the individual.

That is why we get the ‘my [insert relative / friend / colleague] isn’t like that and are harmless and lovely.’ It happens frequently on threads. I used to just willingly accept those statements as being examples to remind me that not ‘all’ are like that.

However, after recent threads I think I now take those statements with a grain of salt. I think some people need to think of their loved one as not contributing to the demanded societal changes that are negatively impacting others. Maybe some of those who refer to their loved ones as outliers from the extreme examples do it so they can stay in a comfortable zone of supporting the overall movement.

After all, if they take their loved one as the norm and detach them from all the rest of the demands - the use of opposite sex single sex spaces as a NB person, the language changes, it all seems reasonable in their mind. Their loved one is in need and they want to support them so they focus on that as the exemplar and deny the harm still being done.

And then you start to realise that one by one those loved ones are still having the language modified for them individually, and that the poster doesn’t know what their loved one has requested / expected / demanded from others. They can only extrapolate their experience and have never asked or witnessed further.

It is still a state of denial though. Because every time someone who claims to be NB states this in any capacity, even just registering for a store card, enrolling for a course they are actively contributing to the over all movement. Does the person discussing the NB person understand what the person’s work or school situation is? Because the knock on impact can be very wide and unexpected if you have not experienced it personally.

I know a few NB people. Some of them are lovely as you would expect. But that doesn’t change the reality. That their choice in philosophical belief is causing harm to others. For instance, that person’s choice might directly cause family members, service providers etc to be counselled on the use of chosen language and cause harm for the person being counselled. The number of lectures I have received now on whether I use the correct language for the person, even one who supposedly doesn’t care which is used, has become too many to list. Not from the person, but from the well meaning friend or family member or colleague. Doing it because they want to support their loved one’s identity.

Of course, those lectures are delivered without the knowledge of others so others don’t see the impact. They can still claim their loved one is not causing any issues at all with their chosen identity.

There are direct and indirect consequences for adopting a gender identity. It now, due to the campaigning of lobby groups, has official status. This sets it apart and it cannot be dismissed as a ‘cultural’ element as most cultural elements don’t have the demands on society that these identities have.

Gender identity now is codified with language and laws protecting it. It really is irrelevant what the loved one wants, as soon as that identity is noted, there are other people who have to act according to policy. So even if the person is not fussed by what language gets used, the impact of the statement of identity effectively puts specified actions in place.

Even if it is just results in someone being lectured by a well meaning family member/ friend or colleague on why don’t you use the preferred language on the NB person’s behalf. Or even if it is someone who really wants to make the NB person happy and therefore willingly takes on the burden of carefully choosing their language around that person. It is still something that needs additional attention to get right. There is then a whole lot of focus put on that person, whether that person intended it or not.

All for a philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect reality.

Interesting points, Helle.

'Non binary' can't be separated from the rest of the gender identity ideology.

I wonder how it was created? As a reaction, perhaps, to the creation of the idea of a 'gender identity' as an essential thing that everyone has, i imagine many people would reflect and respond with the logical realisation that they don't have/can't find any evidence of their own inner 'gender identity '.

The genderism response is to create 'non binary' and sanctify the non existence of a quality/trait/thing that does not in fact exist.

Quite neat. Has any other belief system co opted non believers as part of the belief structure?

An atheist as just another type of Christian, one who believes in the absence of God.

I wonder if the recent creation of 'asexual' is a parallel.

The creation of non-binary reinforces the myth of a 'binary'.

Implying that other people are wholly 'masculine' or 'feminine'. Which is abject bobbins.

we try to use words to describe things, but it works both ways. Naming something brings it into being, in a way, and can affect how we think of things. Basic example, we’ve recently generally accepted that calling little girls ‘pretty’ as a compliment rather than ‘strong’ or ‘clever’ might affect the way they think of themselves.

in that sense, if the kids are fucking fed up with being stuck in their cultural gender boxes (which power to them if so!) and this is how they’re dealing with it, by trying to use language to collapse the whole thing… I’m all for it, whether it’s an ‘aesthetic’ or a ‘trend’ or not

Even more pathetic then.

I once shared a meeting with an adult "NB queer" female. She complained she had not been able to get a gynaecological check up in 3 or so years because of her "identity" 🙄

and yes, I'm being judgemental. I don't care

When my DC announced they were trans age 13, it was service providers who immediately affirmed. Without exception these professionals were white, middle-class women. They were not being pressured from above and were actually going against the policies at the time. We were threatened with social services and it generally caused huge conflict between us and our child. I would say those service providers harmed me over a sustained period.

Contrary to the "facts" written in this thread, my DC doesn't wear make-up at all - not even nail polish. No piercings or tattoos. They wear tracksuits in a variety of colours. They have long hair but are not clean-shaven.

If my DC's non-binary identity causes harm to any of his current or future service providers, I feel zero guilt whatsoever.

I'm not a well-meaning but dim parent. I have full awareness of why people like you (of which there are many in general but the majority view of MN) consider my DCs NB identity to be dangerous. I do not care and I will continue to support my DC.

Great that you support your child.

It does seem though that you acknowledge the harm these identities are resulting in. So that is great too, that you have made your choice with as much knowledge as possible.

I am sorry to hear though that you were treated the way you were by people who were making decisions for your child that has now been shown to be potentially harmful to children. That also forced you to be making decisions quickly and without the luxury of time to research.

People like ‘me’ are the majority of the UK according to different polls. So it figures that MN would reflect that.

But it doesn’t collapse the whole thing, it actually reinforces it. Instead of Olivia saying “I’m a girl and I can have short hair, be a Mathematician and like football”, we now have Olivia saying, “I have short hair, want to be a Mathematician and I like football - so I can’t be a girl, I must be non-binary”.

Saying and thinking that is saying and thinking that gender stereotypes are valid and good. What’ would be collapsing gender stereotypes is being a girl and knowing you can look, be and do anything you want.

Tragically, we were heading in that direction decades ago, but now it’s all regressed.

100% this.

It is so, so depressing that we've regressed so much since I was a teen. What happened?

I wasn't forced to make decisions quickly, I'm not sure why you believe that. I do not consider the harm you describe (being lectured about using preferred pronouns) to be even close to 1/10000000000 of the harm I experienced over the course of 3 years by white, middle-class women who "knew better" than I did. These professionals wilfully and purposefully went against the advice of the time.

Fortunately I was able to fight them off, but I'll never, ever, forgive them, nor will I turn my back on my child to satisfy the likes of you.

We live a happy and quiet existence and that's my only priority.

I assumed, wrongly, that you made decisions because you were threatened with being reported to social services. I am glad to hear that you weren’t making decisions without having time to research.

And I agree that your family experienced direct and significant harm. However, you know nothing about me and my own situation and are also making assumptions. I also don’t engage in comparing levels of harm because where do people expect the boundary to be drawn? Is a little bit of harm acceptable to female people to accommodate male people’s gender identities? Or does it have to be significant ? Who arbitrates this?

However, there is a need to view the impact at a societal level versus just the individual. And to understand just where these societal demands have come from and why.

You have also wrongly assumed that I would ever expect you to ‘turn your back on your child’, which seems a rather unlikely assumption particularly after my previous post to you. Of course, you need to care for your child, I didn’t suggest you shouldn’t.

There are loads of ways to look at it and I’m certainly no expert, but I don’t think ‘girls can be anything’ has got us very far tbh. Gender stereotypes ARE real, and very, very entrenched. It’s hard for me as an old crone to imagine what my mental framework would be without the structure of ‘the feminine’ as applied to myself - and I don’t mean that in the sense of frills and pink, I mean all of it. But I hugely admire any desire and effort to lean towards a totally new way of doing and thinking it. If everyone WAS non-binary, I wouldn’t see that as a bad thing, as many on here seem to.