To think “non-binary” is becoming a fashion statement for some people rather than a true identity?

[ByPoliteExpert]

Not saying it’s not real but the aestheticisation of it is creeping in.

Becoming? It always was. Everything nowadays comes down to whether it is ‘trendy’ or not. Environmentalism is just a trend for some people, obviously fashion itself is - the amount of money people will spend on crap just because someone told them too! - food and diets are. More worryingly self harm always spread through ‘social contagion’ - in other words, being trendy. That’s been a known problem whenever I’ve worked next to mental health professionals.

Now I’ve mentioned that I suppose it’s going to be difficult to duly express my irritation with people who live by trends instead of reason and rationality. Perhaps I can still mention how pathetic and annoying I find the way in which the entire British culture has shifted to favour and indeed encourage this, with its emphasis now on needing to fit in and groupthink.

I assumed someone has perhaps associated a woman acting in a way that supposedly defies sexist stereotypes as being ‘feminist’.

“She’s rejecting, inwardly, gender norms where they suppress women”

This is where the complication arises, I think. Because how can someone ‘reject’ gender norms by declaring they are no longer female person? All they end up doing is accepting the norms of the gender identity they are declaring they are. This is the part that when you scratch the surface loses coherency and logic for an identity based on such a theory.

Plus also the focus is on individualism which is not part of feminist theory which is collectivism.

Maybe it is like assuming any to do with ‘girl power’ is feminist .

There is a disconnect in the logic.

You are far too patient and polite!

You (general you, and the PPs friend in particular) do not "reject gender norms against women" by declaring you are not one of them! It's the most ridiculous statement ever. It's also incredibly selfish.
And not feminist at all.

Cross posts!

but also, the only "gender norm" that is being rejected, apparently, is the "label" woman. 🤪

These are social categories, not biological categories. They don't have to have neatly defined contours.

It's like asking: how do you know when you have reached the point where you have transcended into being a tomboy? How do you know when you have transcended into being a girly girl? We readily accept that in these cases, how someone processes their own identity is part of the answer. Obviously only part of the answer: you can't just claim to be a tomboy and then act very girly. But at the same time, it seems reasonable that self identification will be a necessary (if not a sufficient) condition on whether someone counts as a tomboy, a girly girl, or non-binary.

I know several younger people who consider themselves non-binary but from what I can see they are just rejecting the stereotypes associated with being male or female. I accept how they describe themselves but I think it is a shame they feel the need to use it.

The difference is that "cat" is a biological category (like sex). Gender is a social category: often, it's the social meaning imposed upon sex. If your niece really thinks that she's a biological cat then obviously that's a delusion that requires serious medical attention. More likely she's playing a game, and would be happy to admit that when pressed.

People who say they are non binary are neither claiming to belong to a particular biological category nor playing a game. They are expressing a social identity.

Belonging to a social category is complicated, but it's not just based on what people say. Someone isn't non-binary just because they say they are. I could say that I am, it doesn't make it true.

Im non binary, I refuse to use 1s and 0s 😂

Neither you nor I are her, or can know exactly has compelled her choices and what she might choose in the future. I only know what she has discussed with me. For her, it is a feminist action as it fights against what is expected of young women now: almost a hyper-sexualised look. It isn’t something I necessarily agree with, BTW.

"My friend is defining what womanhood means for her."

By declaring herself to be non-binary, isn't your friend actively rejecting womanhood? Isn't she is trying to redefine herself to be 'not a woman/female'?

"she doesn’t want to be described by the stereotypical boundaries of ‘woman’."

Yes, by saying that being a woman is all the things that she rejects. Thereby actively reinforcing stereotypes of being female. Do you not see how this works?

If someone chose to defy any stereotype while still actively acknowledging they are female and therefore a woman or a girl, THAT is not being described by the stereotypical boundaries of 'woman/girl'. Rejecting them by recategorising yourself is an act of reinforcing those stereotypes. This is where the logic falls apart.

I can see on one hand, you are thinking that she is rejecting stereotypes through her choices, but you seem to not understand that the non-binary identity is one that means that the person is rejecting the sex binary. It doesn't mean gender non-conforming where someone accepts their sex while acting in ways that don't conform to stereotypes.

No, I think the combat of stereotypes has been superficial and not penetrating enough to materially change the majority's cultural experience of gender. Otherwise we wouldn't still be having the incredibly serious and large-scale issues of sex-based discrimination that society is still getting damaged by.

I don't think this has anything to do with whether you personally feel feminine or masculine or in-between or whether it changes day-to-day. I think this is to do with the identification of being non-binary as a response to one's own cultural experience of gender.

Yes it's obviously fashion. Where you find places that this fashion is 'trendy' (Brighton), the % of children in the schools who are gender fluid/gender questioning / non binary etc etc is like 500% higher than the average.

I see. I agree that rejecting a hypersexualised stereotype can be a feminist act.

But that is not the only thing that your friend is doing, unfortunately.

But why should everyone else have any interest in someone’s personal cultural experience of gender?

Huh? My daughter is the girliest girly tomboy in town. Why can’t a tomboy be girly? Being a tomboy is about pursuits not how you present yourself. She could climb a tree in no time wearing a frilly tutu when she was younger!

I agree. Why should anyone have to act in support of someone’s chosen philosophical belief the way that has been demanded?

Why are male people with non-binary identities demanding access to female single sex provisions?

What other philosophical belief has new fully funded category at sports events?

Why is there this demand to change language to suit someone’s gender identity?

I didn't say you or anyone else should have an interest in it – that's not the question of the thread. The thread is whether non-binary is becoming a fashion statement, which is what my contribution is based on.

But the whole premise of the thread revolved around ‘what is non-binary’ as in order to answer the thread we have to know what it is.

I still don’t know.

"I'm non-binary, for you see, I'm not a boring WOMAN, I'm a PERSON. I'm not like all those other bimbo airheads, I'm COOL and so so different, please don't treat me like you treat women."

I'm not here to help you 'know' what non-binary is. I came here to answer whether I thought it amounted to a fashion statement. I 'know' what I view non-binary as, and I know whether I find that legitimate or not. I don't expect you to know or care otherwise.

Then if it isn’t objectively explainable then I have to conclude that it is a fashion statement. Thanks - that is what I was trying to understand as I honestly don’t have a clue.

@Helleofabore

I can see on one hand, you are thinking that she is rejecting stereotypes through her choices, but you seem to not understand that the non-binary identity is one that means that the person is rejecting the sex binary. It doesn't mean gender non-conforming where someone accepts their sex while acting in ways that don't conform to stereotypes.

Thank you for the clarification - I do understand it as it happens, as the clue is right there in the term. She is obviously both at this stage: not completely in acceptance of her biological sex and, at the same time, conforming in some ways to that gender while wholesale rejecting stereotypes.

I suppose in a world of billions of people, there are millions of of ways to visualise and present yourself to the world as an individual.

No. It's something that inherently dull people like to call themselves in the mistaken belief that it makes them interesting. It doesn't.

So what is the criteria to be non binary? How can someone prove they are non binary? How do we know who is really really non binary and who is just jumping on the bandwagon? Is there a test?

I am a biological male.

Everything I feel, think, and do is therefore what it is to be male, regardless of the degree to which I conform to any stereotype.

Other men will have their own versions, all different. There is no need to invent another gender category, and the concept of 'non binary' is redundant.