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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the US was right to bomb Iran? What am I missing?

948 replies

Lastu · 22/06/2025 13:45

I am no fan of Trump. I’m very much left wing.

But am I missing something here? Why has everyone become such huge supporters of Iran? The world is a safer place as a result of removing their capability to develop nuclear weapons? Why is everyone carrying on like Iran is a victim and they were truly just trying to implement peaceful nuclear capabilities? Has everyone lost the plot?

OP posts:
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38
loopinloo · 24/06/2025 20:04

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 19:59

@loopinloowhy are you convinced Iran isn’t moving towards a weapon? They are in breach already, this has been flagged.

What makes you so sure 400kg at 60% is for the purposes of peaceful use? And that this was their intention over the next few years?

Edited

I've replied to this point SO many times now. I've sent links to the latest US intelligence assessment and IAEA report. Both organisations have consistently and repeatedly said Iran is not pursuing a nuclear weapon. Maybe the better question is why are you so convinced to the alternative?

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 20:08

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 20:04

I've replied to this point SO many times now. I've sent links to the latest US intelligence assessment and IAEA report. Both organisations have consistently and repeatedly said Iran is not pursuing a nuclear weapon. Maybe the better question is why are you so convinced to the alternative?

@loopinloo I've linked this already

The global nuclear watchdog's board of governors has formally declared Iran in breach of its non-proliferation obligations for the first time in 20 years.

Nineteen of the 35 countries on the board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) voted for the motion, which was backed by the US, UK, France and Germany.

It says Iran's "many failures" to provide the IAEA with full answers about its undeclared nuclear material and activities constitutes non-compliance. It also expresses concern about Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium, which can be used to make reactor fuel but also nuclear weapons.

Iran condemned the resolution as "political" and said it would open a new enrichment facility.

It follows a report from the IAEA last week which criticised Iran's "general lack of co-operation" and said it had enough uranium enriched to 60% purity, near weapons grade, to potentially make nine nuclear bombs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3v6w2qr12o

Flag of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) at its Vienna headquarters (file photo)

Watchdog finds Iran failing to meet nuclear obligations

Iran condemns the resolution passed by the IAEA's board of governors as "political" and says it will open a new uranium enrichment facility.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3v6w2qr12o

rainingsnoring · 24/06/2025 20:14

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 20:04

I've replied to this point SO many times now. I've sent links to the latest US intelligence assessment and IAEA report. Both organisations have consistently and repeatedly said Iran is not pursuing a nuclear weapon. Maybe the better question is why are you so convinced to the alternative?

Unfortunately, this poster is incredibly repetitive and has been for three entire days!

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 20:16

rainingsnoring · 24/06/2025 20:14

Unfortunately, this poster is incredibly repetitive and has been for three entire days!

I find you so tbf with this constant stuff.

Beachtastic · 24/06/2025 21:41

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 19:54

That's a very good point! But maybe that's why I believe strategy matters so much. If everything has the potential to backfire, then isn’t it even more important to be deliberate, to weigh long-term consequences, and to avoid actions driven purely by emotion or short-term optics?

Don't you think, though, that all the key players probably believe they've rationally weighed all the long-term consequences? Based on the information and advice they have available to them, I'm guessing that when making decisions under pressure they're as certain as they can be that they're doing the right thing, or at least have chosen the lesser of evils—even those we consider completely malicious actors, because in their view the world will be a much better place once they've achieved their goals. Their methods may be crude, but events tend to unfold in unexpected ways—a bit like kicking a telly back in the day, sometimes it did actually fix the picture.

I give up trying to figure it all out, especially since it's all outside my influence, and just hope the "eventual outcome" will be more or less OK one day. But then, of course, there is never an eventual outcome because it's always disrupted by something else. It's like chemical reactions: collisions of energy, bonds breaking and forming, transfers and sharing of electrons, conservation of mass, and the influence of conditions. Jolly good luck to anyone attempting to control what happens next.

Hope my little philosophical waffle makes some sort of sense! I've been admiring your unspaced em-rules and have adopted same 😜

PandoraSocks · 24/06/2025 21:43

YourAmplePlumPoster · 24/06/2025 18:47

Which political parties are being infiltrated?
Have you missed the Greens recent elected candidates?

Can you name names? Because if you don't, it is not really possible to debate whether they are Islamic fundamentalists. What is your definition of an Islamic fundamentalist?

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 21:44

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 20:08

@loopinloo I've linked this already

The global nuclear watchdog's board of governors has formally declared Iran in breach of its non-proliferation obligations for the first time in 20 years.

Nineteen of the 35 countries on the board of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) voted for the motion, which was backed by the US, UK, France and Germany.

It says Iran's "many failures" to provide the IAEA with full answers about its undeclared nuclear material and activities constitutes non-compliance. It also expresses concern about Iran's stockpile of enriched uranium, which can be used to make reactor fuel but also nuclear weapons.

Iran condemned the resolution as "political" and said it would open a new enrichment facility.

It follows a report from the IAEA last week which criticised Iran's "general lack of co-operation" and said it had enough uranium enriched to 60% purity, near weapons grade, to potentially make nine nuclear bombs.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3v6w2qr12o

Yes, exactly — the IAEA resolution is about non-compliance and lack of cooperation, not about Iran already possessing nuclear weapons. Do you understand the difference? As you said, having uranium enriched to 60% is concerning because it brings Iran closer to weapons capability if they chose to go that route, but it’s still not the same as building a bomb. The IAEA and U.S. intelligence have consistently reported that Iran has not yet made the political decision to weaponize its nuclear program.

What concerns me now is the possible impact of the recent strikes. Until recently, Iran was still allowing IAEA inspections, and its nuclear sites were declared and monitored. But this kind of military escalation risks pushing Iran to withdraw entirely from the NPT or IAEA oversight, which would make tracking its activities far more difficult—and ironically, increase the risk of weaponization. If Iran does go fully covert, we’ll have less visibility and fewer diplomatic levers to prevent that worst-case scenario.

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 21:47

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 21:44

Yes, exactly — the IAEA resolution is about non-compliance and lack of cooperation, not about Iran already possessing nuclear weapons. Do you understand the difference? As you said, having uranium enriched to 60% is concerning because it brings Iran closer to weapons capability if they chose to go that route, but it’s still not the same as building a bomb. The IAEA and U.S. intelligence have consistently reported that Iran has not yet made the political decision to weaponize its nuclear program.

What concerns me now is the possible impact of the recent strikes. Until recently, Iran was still allowing IAEA inspections, and its nuclear sites were declared and monitored. But this kind of military escalation risks pushing Iran to withdraw entirely from the NPT or IAEA oversight, which would make tracking its activities far more difficult—and ironically, increase the risk of weaponization. If Iran does go fully covert, we’ll have less visibility and fewer diplomatic levers to prevent that worst-case scenario.

How can they be sure when it is clear they are not getting full answers?

The part of the article copied shows the problem.

Can you see the issue there?

ETA I haven’t posted they have them already but the lack of willingness and concern by the regulator is the problem.

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 21:54

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 21:47

How can they be sure when it is clear they are not getting full answers?

The part of the article copied shows the problem.

Can you see the issue there?

ETA I haven’t posted they have them already but the lack of willingness and concern by the regulator is the problem.

Edited

We do not yet know what enrichment capacity Iran retains post-attack, what exact stockpiles of enriched uranium it was able to salvage, or what its intent will be regarding its nuclear program going forward.

But even if Iran had the capability and developed the intent to enrich to 90 percent — two major assumptions that should not be presumed — reaching that level is only one of several complex technical steps required to build a bomb.

Iran would also need to convert the enriched uranium from a gas to a metal — then shape the metal, build, acquire, and assemble several other complex components, and integrate all of it into a deliverable device. Each of these steps is complex.

EasternStandard · 24/06/2025 21:57

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 21:54

We do not yet know what enrichment capacity Iran retains post-attack, what exact stockpiles of enriched uranium it was able to salvage, or what its intent will be regarding its nuclear program going forward.

But even if Iran had the capability and developed the intent to enrich to 90 percent — two major assumptions that should not be presumed — reaching that level is only one of several complex technical steps required to build a bomb.

Iran would also need to convert the enriched uranium from a gas to a metal — then shape the metal, build, acquire, and assemble several other complex components, and integrate all of it into a deliverable device. Each of these steps is complex.

Ik it is, thankfully. It’s not an easy task. That is better than the opposite.

I’d work on stopping development and hopefully that’ll be the case.

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 22:04

Beachtastic · 24/06/2025 21:41

Don't you think, though, that all the key players probably believe they've rationally weighed all the long-term consequences? Based on the information and advice they have available to them, I'm guessing that when making decisions under pressure they're as certain as they can be that they're doing the right thing, or at least have chosen the lesser of evils—even those we consider completely malicious actors, because in their view the world will be a much better place once they've achieved their goals. Their methods may be crude, but events tend to unfold in unexpected ways—a bit like kicking a telly back in the day, sometimes it did actually fix the picture.

I give up trying to figure it all out, especially since it's all outside my influence, and just hope the "eventual outcome" will be more or less OK one day. But then, of course, there is never an eventual outcome because it's always disrupted by something else. It's like chemical reactions: collisions of energy, bonds breaking and forming, transfers and sharing of electrons, conservation of mass, and the influence of conditions. Jolly good luck to anyone attempting to control what happens next.

Hope my little philosophical waffle makes some sort of sense! I've been admiring your unspaced em-rules and have adopted same 😜

That is a brilliant summary of chaos theory! You're getting very Aristotelian- no one willingly believes they are committing evil. Nonetheless, in a culture that prizes 'wins', I cannot identify any reasonable win in Trump's action this week. I can't see a determinable long-term benefit to the United States. Thoughts?

Beachtastic · 24/06/2025 22:44

loopinloo · 24/06/2025 22:04

That is a brilliant summary of chaos theory! You're getting very Aristotelian- no one willingly believes they are committing evil. Nonetheless, in a culture that prizes 'wins', I cannot identify any reasonable win in Trump's action this week. I can't see a determinable long-term benefit to the United States. Thoughts?

I'm flattered that you ask 🌞 But, quite honestly, it's waaaaaaaay beyond my capacity to work out! 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯

rainingsnoring · 24/06/2025 23:03

Beachtastic · 24/06/2025 21:41

Don't you think, though, that all the key players probably believe they've rationally weighed all the long-term consequences? Based on the information and advice they have available to them, I'm guessing that when making decisions under pressure they're as certain as they can be that they're doing the right thing, or at least have chosen the lesser of evils—even those we consider completely malicious actors, because in their view the world will be a much better place once they've achieved their goals. Their methods may be crude, but events tend to unfold in unexpected ways—a bit like kicking a telly back in the day, sometimes it did actually fix the picture.

I give up trying to figure it all out, especially since it's all outside my influence, and just hope the "eventual outcome" will be more or less OK one day. But then, of course, there is never an eventual outcome because it's always disrupted by something else. It's like chemical reactions: collisions of energy, bonds breaking and forming, transfers and sharing of electrons, conservation of mass, and the influence of conditions. Jolly good luck to anyone attempting to control what happens next.

Hope my little philosophical waffle makes some sort of sense! I've been admiring your unspaced em-rules and have adopted same 😜

Interesting thoughts.
I would agree that the key players are likely to think that they are making rational, sensible decisions. I'm sure that they are able to justify their behaviour to themselves. Most of them are the sort of people who over estimate their abilities and most are the very people who should not be in these roles as world leaders. The fact that we continue to elect exactly the wrong kind of person is a systems failure, rather than the fault of one person or one party or one country.

If we are talking about general chaos, it's all to be expected in a Fourth Turning period. Talking generally, we are pretty much guaranteed a lot more chaos over coming years and decades imo.

CatHairEveryWhereNow · 24/06/2025 23:15

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn7ze4vmk2pt

As we mentioned earlier, US media are reporting that an initial assessment produced by the Defense Intelligence Agency says US strikes on Iran only set back its nuclear programme by a few months.

In a post on social media, the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, says: "This alleged 'assessment' is flat-out wrong and was classified as 'top secret' but was still leaked to CNN by an anonymous, low-level loser in the intelligence community.

So may have done very little.

US strikes did not destroy Iran's nuclear programme, intelligence report says - live updates

The White House says the assessment is "flat-out wrong" and is "a clear attempt to demean" President Trump.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn7ze4vmk2pt

Beachtastic · 25/06/2025 07:06

The fact that we continue to elect exactly the wrong kind of person is a systems failure, rather than the fault of one person or one party or one country

I don't think of it as a systems failure, I think of it as just the way things work generally. I haven't studied chaos theory, but am not sure chaos is the right word to describe how nothing is ever static or "achieved" because there are always opposing forces and curveballs. The struggle for some kind of dominance or equilibrium is never ending.

If we elected the "right" leader, a lot of people would think s/he was the "wrong" leader. Those people don't just go "Oh well, we'll just give up and leave them to it." And the right leader would also fuck up. I can't think of any political (or indeed any other) move that had no unintended repercussions.

This all sounds like I don't give a shit, but I do have preferences. I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, and I don't like Israel being described as the aggressor, as though its survival is not at stake against rich, powerful forces. I have no idea how this is all going to play out, and no one else does either. "Leadership" is supposed to mean rational direction, but in practice it probably just means making best guesses.

minnienono · 25/06/2025 07:19

Not the business of America to get involved in other people’s squabbles.

loopinloo · 25/06/2025 09:54

Beachtastic · 25/06/2025 07:06

The fact that we continue to elect exactly the wrong kind of person is a systems failure, rather than the fault of one person or one party or one country

I don't think of it as a systems failure, I think of it as just the way things work generally. I haven't studied chaos theory, but am not sure chaos is the right word to describe how nothing is ever static or "achieved" because there are always opposing forces and curveballs. The struggle for some kind of dominance or equilibrium is never ending.

If we elected the "right" leader, a lot of people would think s/he was the "wrong" leader. Those people don't just go "Oh well, we'll just give up and leave them to it." And the right leader would also fuck up. I can't think of any political (or indeed any other) move that had no unintended repercussions.

This all sounds like I don't give a shit, but I do have preferences. I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, and I don't like Israel being described as the aggressor, as though its survival is not at stake against rich, powerful forces. I have no idea how this is all going to play out, and no one else does either. "Leadership" is supposed to mean rational direction, but in practice it probably just means making best guesses.

I can see you care, and I think most people, even on here, want the same outcomes: for Iran not to develop nuclear weapons, for both Israel and Iran to maintain territorial integrity, for the region to become more stable, and for the United States to avoid being dragged into another prolonged war in the Middle East.

Your perspective made me reflect. I do wonder if Trump is more of an improviser than an ideologue. It's difficult to evaluate this moment when the U.S. president speaks unpredictably and shows little evidence of strategic thinking. Yet by attacking Iran directly, Trump went against many of his advisers and the "America First" philosophy he once championed. His sudden embrace of regime change even stunned his own team. Senators Vance and Rubio scrambled to deny it, only for Trump to contradict them hours later.

Unlike the Bush administration, which at least attempted to plan for the aftermath in Iraq, Trump appears to have made this decision without a long-term strategy. He has acted in a far more divided political environment and with no clear endgame. His transformation of “Make America Great Again” into “Make Iran Great Again” echoes the hubris of the Iraq War- the idea that foreign regimes can be overthrown and remade in our image. Iran is a country of nearly 90 million people, not a dollhouse to rearrange. This feels like exactly the kind of ripple effect your chaos theory analogy describes, where one unpredictable move triggers destabilisation far beyond what was anticipated.

One detail that rarely gets attention is the legal and diplomatic precedent this action breaks. Israel has previously struck known or suspected nuclear facilities, such as Iraq’s Osirak reactor in 1981 and the alleged al-Kibar reactor in Syria in 2007. Osirak was under IAEA inspection at the time, similar to Iran’s facilities today. The recent American strikes on Fordow, Natanz, and Isfahan mark the first time a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty has attacked facilities actively monitored by the IAEA. This is a sharp reversal of past U.S. policy. In 1981, Washington condemned Israel’s strike on Osirak and supported a UN Security Council resolution against it. Today, a similar resolution would almost certainly be vetoed by the United States.

Like you, what drew me to post, after lurking on Mumsnet, was frustration at some of the oversimplified portrayals. People framing Iran as "pure evil" or as “crazy mullahs” stockpiling nukes seem unable to imagine Iranian decision-making as anything beyond a maniacal determination to wipe out Israel. That’s simply not true. This kind of good-versus-evil narrative is dangerous, and I felt there was a real lack of attempting to understand the motivations of one of the key sides in the conflict.

That said, I absolutely understand that Israel feels threatened by Iran. Iran has undeniably supported proxy networks across the region to pressure Israel. But it is also true that Tehran sees Netanyahu and Trump as existential threats. Both have publicly called for regime change, and Netanyahu has long advocated military action to destroy the Islamic Republic.

During 2011 to 2012, Israel considered unilateral military strikes on Iran’s nuclear program but ultimately pulled back, aware that it couldn’t fully dismantle Iran’s capabilities and concerned about alienating Washington. Since then, it has waged a covert shadow war of sabotage, cyberattacks, and assassinations. These tactics largely subsided while the JCPOA was in effect, but returned and intensified after Trump withdrew from the deal in 2018. Iran, meanwhile, was reluctant to escalate into direct confrontation, knowing it lacked the conventional strength to match Israel’s firepower or its U.S. backing.

Even when Trump publicly opposed a strike on Iran during negotiations, Israel likely calculated he would not punish them for acting. That too turned out to be correct.

What often gets overlooked is how this war also serves domestic political interests. Netanyahu's corruption trial is now on hold. His coalition, previously shaky due to the Haredi draft issue, has stabilised. Political opponents like Lapid and Gantz are rallying around the flag. Publicly calling for the assassination of a sovereign country’s leader crosses a glaring red line in terms of international norms, but domestically, it has brought Netanyahu significant short-term gains.

My argument is that all the outcomes we hope for are more likely under a JCPOA-style agreement. The conditions that led to this conflict would almost certainly not have emerged if Trump had handled Iran policy differently in his first term. It would have been far more difficult to justify an attack on Iran had it continued to comply with the JCPOA and maintained low levels of enriched uranium. Some posters here have claimed the JCPOA strengthened the regime. I haven’t seen compelling evidence of that. In 2017, the JCPOA’s success helped secure a second term for reformist President Hassan Rouhani and Trump’s abandonment of the deal critically weakened more moderate voices in Iran.

Of course, this doesn’t absolve Iran of its own failures, nor does it excuse the regime for abandoning the nuclear restrictions of the JCPOA, even if it was the United States that broke the deal first.

Beachtastic · 25/06/2025 10:53

@loopinloo You sound like a very astute political commentator, unlike me, who blithely takes no notice of politics if I can help it, since it's always just a shitshow that I can do nothing about! I'm not sure I'm a chaos theorist—I'm probably coming across as a complete nihilist, but can probably be filed more under "Taoist" really 🤓

You mention Trump making the decision without a long-term strategy, but in my view long-term strategies never work out as planned anyway (and I'm sure he imagines he has it all worked out). I sometimes wonder if it actually matters who's in charge, as everything goes tits-up regardless. That said, maybe you could make a better job of it than Trump... or maybe I could! Or nextdoor's cat! 😹

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 25/06/2025 10:59

@loopinlooi found your post really interesting thank you

rainingsnoring · 25/06/2025 12:40

@Beachtastic I really appreciate your thoughts but don't agree.

I think there have been, objectively speaking, far better leaders at certain times in history. I also think that UK politics (and US and probably EU), has descended into a route to make people very rich from passing £££ to the 'right people' when in office, as opposed to actually having any intention to serve the public. That's an unfair generalisation, of course but I think it's certainly true that things have changed for the worse.
I think there is a lot of fault with our current system and, while there is never a perfect way to manage things, there are some better ones.
I mentioned the fourth turning above. I think it's a concept well worth exploring and seems to be very helpful in explaining recent and current events. That is why I mentioned chaos, for want of a better word, and why we are undergoing such a period of massive change, division, conflict, etc, I think.
Just in case you or anyone else is interested:
www.amazon.co.uk/Fourth-Turning-American-Prophecy/dp/0767900464

rainingsnoring · 25/06/2025 13:06

@loopinloo

Your posts are extremely informative. You seem to have practically encyclopaedic knowledge of the historical agreements and attacks made over the last few decades. Kudos to you!

I found myself drawn to this paragraph of yours in particular because this is exactly how I feel about the attempt to reduce everything into 'goodies' and 'baddies' in a game. I made a similar comment on the other thread that is running. Not only is this narrative incorrect. It is dangerous, for many reasons but, perhaps most importantly, because it prevents a solution from being explored.

'Like you, what drew me to post, after lurking on Mumsnet, was frustration at some of the oversimplified portrayals. People framing Iran as "pure evil" or as “crazy mullahs” stockpiling nukes seem unable to imagine Iranian decision-making as anything beyond a maniacal determination to wipe out Israel. That’s simply not true. This kind of good-versus-evil narrative is dangerous, and I felt there was a real lack of attempting to understand the motivations of one of the key sides in the conflict'

Regarding Trump's apparent total u-turn in terms of policy and loyalties, there are theories appearing online from excellent analysts that there has been a lot more going on behind the scenes in terms of his (or US) motivation for the action. Suggestions, that this was a deliberate piece of theatre designed to tick certain of DJT's boxes and to try to put a lid on the conflict for now.
Of course, none of us can know the truth. Personally, I don't hold any hope that this is the end of conflict. We can only hope that major escalation of it is avoided in the future.

Beachtastic · 25/06/2025 13:49

@rainingsnoring Reading about history/politics has never been my cup of tea, but that book does look very interesting! In a parallel life where I had time to read books, I'd give it a whirl.

I've had a quick squizz and can relate to the idea of things moving in cycles of ~20 years, with each successive generation kicking against the constraints of the previous one (we can observe this in our own lives).

I do think the internet has sped things up exponentially, though, and creates more pockets of resistance/turbulence than arose naturally in the past. Nowadays it's all much more fluid and messy (unstable) than ever. What we all seem to be having to learn, and fast, is to think in terms of paradox and accept that opposing forces never reach stasis, they just keep the wheel of history turning.

The Chinese had this sussed ~3000 years ago!

To think the US was right to bomb Iran? What am I missing?
rainingsnoring · 25/06/2025 15:01

@Beachtastic you are definitely right about things being in a constant state of flux. That's clearly true. It's also true that we have plenty to learn from the Chinese and other Asians.

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