What could I have done differently? 15yr old no tea

[Oollliivviiaa]

My 15yr old is being vile to me recently. Everything is my fault and some days she will barely speak to me. Yesterday she was awful to me all day. I got a half hearted apology in the evening.

She has taken to moaning about everything we give her to eat. We've asked her what she wants and within reason try to accommodate it (recognising that others have to eat it, time constraints etc). However she just says "I dunno" if we ask her so Ive started just cooking. That always end up with "ugh I dont want it". Tonight I started cooking and she demanded to know what I was cooking. She likes it but if I told her, she would have moaned and I just cant be bothered so I said "it'll be done soon, can you set the table please". She started moaning so I said "it doesnt matter what it is because you'll moan that you dont like it anyway". Not the most helpful comment I know.

Anyway she stormed off to her room because of that comment and has decided shes not going to eat tea (she still doesn't even know what it is!). Her dad went up to tell her it was done and she refused to come down. Ive gone up just to say that if she doesnt eat it, there wont be anything else until breakfast and if she doesn't eat it tonight, it will be reheated for tomorrow's tea. (It reheats well so Im not serving her anything horrible). I wasnt being confrontational or anything like that. She made a sarcastic comment so I just walked away.

She's not come down so I guess shes not having tea.

Its just All. The. Time. It is constant. I am worn out and as awful as it sounds, Im struggling to care that she hasn't had tea (she had a big dinner, she wont starve).

FYI - she refuses to help. Sometimes she wont even stay in the same room as me.

Her dad / my husband is of no use and just sits on the fence. I dont feel like he ever has my back. Yes, that's a husband problem etc etc.

So, how could I have stopped this? What could I have done differently?

Before anyone suggests it, her cooking her own food isnt an option for a myriad of reasons and would actually cause more problems than it solves. Plus, its not really relevant anyway.

It sounds really difficult and stressful, @Oollliivviiaa. I have three sons, and ds3 was a really tough proposition during his teenage years - my mum actually said I’d had it easy with ds1 and ds2, so it was only right and fair that ds3 was a nightmare - thanks mum.

I heard about an author called Charlie Taylor, whose book Divas and Doorslammers says that teenagers brains are actually retiring during the teenage years, and whilst this is happening, they can lose certain abilities - empathy, impulse control, temper control, being able to see that they aren’t the centre of the Universe. He describes it as almost a form of temporary brain damage - but the key word is temporary. He says that most, if not all of these abilities will come back once the restructuring settles down.

I know it doesn’t make things any easier while you are in the thick of it, but I found that knowing why it was happening did help a bit. And all of a sudden, I got back my lovely ds3 - within the space of a week, he gave me unsolicited hugs, tidied his bedroom without being asked, and did his homework without nagging from us or stropping from him. I nearly fainted!

I wonder if it would help if you could just shrug about some things? For example, I understand why you have a specific laundry routine, so there isn’t much wiggle room there, but when it comes to food - if she doesn’t want what you’re cooking, and goes off to her room in a strop, you just shrug and let it go. She won’t starve herself, and you know you’ve offered something she likes, so just take a breath and let it go.

I didn’t say they could only have ND friends and I don’t see why stating they attract each other is insulting?

You have a daughter who exhibits autism symptoms not just poor behaviour.

Your responses see to suggest you may have autism as well.

You have a few ND people in your life at close proximity.

This isn’t a huge reach.

You might not but I don’t think you should rule it out either.

So now I have autism too? Because I called you out on diagnosing my best friend, my brother and my parents based on who some of our friends are? You dont know anything about any of those people. I literally said one sentence about them. I bet all those people waiting for a diagnosis wish it was that easy.

That is why it is insulting to people with autism. It reduces them and their circle. Im sad you dont see that.

I can see why people are jumping to the conclusion that my daughter has autism (pretty sure she doesnt btw based on the fact that at least 8 people who actually deal with her say they dont see anything) and MNs assumption that no one could be NT if there are any problems with their behaviour / in their life.

Im not saying that there wont be techniques that come in handy though.

Literally nobody is saying or even implying this. None of us.

"Your responses seem to suggest" does not equal "You must have".

"Oh look here are a whole bunch of behaviours, patterns and tendencies being exhibited that ND people have, so maybe be open minded to the possibility of ND in the strategies that you choose" does not equal people armchair diagnosing your DD based on your brother's wife.

I, like many others, have tried in good faith to offer up suggestions of possibilities that you may not have thought of. You don't seem willing to consider them, so I'm stepping away for now. I hope that your DD settles into a happier frame of mind soon.

(pretty sure she doesnt btw based on the fact that at least 8 people who actually deal with her say they dont see anything)

It's tricky especially with girls as they are better at mimicking and masking than boys. Are any of these 8 people SALTs, clinical psychologists or paediatritians? Those are the specialists who would pick up the more subtle signs. You have listed quite a lot of signs that she shows at home, they might not show at school. My DC was much more obviously ASC-ish at school than at home, at first the school thought that we were crazy parents for not noticing. But it was to do with the different situations.

Schools "not seeing anything" is really like any other kind of "screening" - some people who don't get flagged up by the screen might still have the condition. The screen flags up the people who are most likely to have the condition. But it still misses some of the less likely or less obvious people.

Sorry, I am not sure how useful that is! If you find that some PDA strategies are helpful then don't be put off using them even if your DD doesn't techncailly have PDA. I did a lot of mix'n'match strategies with DC.

I've got two teenage boys. They moan a lot about the food.

My thing is I've cooked it. Not hungry? Don't want it? Fine. Sort yourself out.

Oh and laundry...I do it all because we are a family of six and dont faff about with separate baskets and loads etc. Everyone just brings their washing down every morning and puts it in the machine. If it doesn't get put in the machine or in the basket in the bathroom, it doesn't get done. They've known that rule since they were about 10. I dont mind doing the washing, but I'm not going round collecting it or being a mind reader to know it needs doing for something specific.

No. People have literally said

• your daughter is autistic - as I said, I can see why they said that
• her boyfriend must be autistic because MN has said my daughter probably is
• my brother is probably autistic because his wife is
• my best friend is probably autistic because her partner is
• someone even asked about my parents behaviours!
• I must be autistic because I called out the above nonsense

I have already said some of the techniques will be helpful. I have a couple of the recommended books on order from the library. I implemented a couple of suggestions. They havent worked but Ive tried.

I have put up with people telling me Im a crap mother.

So dont say Im not listening to people or open to suggestions.

Do you ever talk to her about your own feelings OP? I wonder if doing that more might help her to see that you’re a person in your own right, with feelings, who deserves to be treated well. And not just an annoying mum figure trying to ruin her life. This bit in one of your posts stood out for me:

“I moved out as soon as I could too. I literally didnt speak to my parents at all for over 6 months. My relationship with my parents has improved but it isnt good. I'm scared it’s history repeating itself.”

I feel like it might be helpful to talk to her about all that, and tell her you don’t want history to repeat itself. See if it opens up some new ways for her to interact with you. And maybe don’t be afraid to cry when she’s being horrible, and laugh when she’s being ridiculous. It sounds like you’re keeping all your authentic emotions hidden from her, so she feels like her moaning isn’t getting any reaction and maybe she’s interpreting that as you don’t care what she does. I think I’d be screaming at her to stop complaining after the first 2 minutes in your situation. Tell her straight how hideous it feels to be constantly under attack in your own home.

Id definitely also stop with the daily pocket money if she’s good. That’s more appropriate for a 6 year old, and it isn’t working. A monthly allowance might make her feel more grown up and trusted.

It sounds exhausting and I’m sorry this is happening to you.

I said neurodivergent, not autistic.

Your daughter has suspected Autism which runs in families, and your reactions are very black and white too.

You are struggling parenting your daughter and it may be worth looking into other possibilities.

None of this is insulting. I have adhd, my partner has autism. This is not an uncommon pairing.

TDLR - all the waffle basically says:

• new school have confirmed again no ND. This is the 4th(?) time she's been screened
• things are far from perfect but are much better. I dont dread coming home every day atm
• food is still a concern
• husband is being more supportive
• we were told we're "alright" and "pretty chill for parents"!!!

So a long rambling update. I know it's only been a few months but it's so dramatic. Things are far from perfect. There was a blow up last night over earphones for example but I'm trying to celebrate in case it changes again. I can then come back and be reminded that we did have a brief interlude.

She changed schools. She is a completely different person. We have our daughter back!!! Albeit a moodier version but at least we recognise her now.

The new school is a UTC so completely different to her old school. It's much smaller, different lessons and much more flexible (aka sensible!). She's excited about going to school again and is thriving, personally and in her education.

There wasn't anything "wrong" with her old school as such, there was no bullying (apart from some mean girls) or anything like that but she didnt like it and she wasnt doing as well as she (or we or her teachers) knew she could and that was making her angry too. I think she was "surviving" at school and then coming home and letting everything out and that's all we were seeing. Obviously her new school isn't perfect but it's much better for her.

The new school also dont think there are any signs of autism or ND. They are well on that because I think they get extra funding from their business partners.

I didnt dare to add to my original post that I had also dragged her to a weekly activity group that I knew she would benefit from. She didnt want to go at first but loves it and gets so much out of it.

For my part I have been focussing on my quiet voice when she does get shouty or stroppy. Which she still does (a lot!) and we are both getting better at removing ourselves from the situation when necessary. Because it's not constant, it's easier to see it. It's not relentless anymore. It tends to be about something specific rather than everything so is easier to manage for us both. She doesnt autonatically jump to anger now. She has other emotions which do involve crying or grumpiness but shouting isnt the current default. Yesterday we were all properly giggling about something stupid for ages. We've not done that in soooo long. I've missed it.

I dont think Im particularly shouty. She said I was but even now Im really concebtraring on keeping my voice calm, there arent many times Ive had to stop myself from shouting.

Her new school is about 10minutes from where I work. She'll text me some days to see if I want to walk home with her! I'm under no illusions that she'll have text everyone else first but she's gone from refusing to be in the same room as me to asking for my company! I'm like "yeah, sure we can do I guess" whilst throwing everything into my bag and rushing out the door before she changes her mind. Any enthusiasm or loud noises scare her and makes her run away.🤣

Food is better. Still not great. I'm still worried about her eating. The new school meals "suck" apparently but she wont tell us what she wants for packed lunch. It's pointless making sonething (or her making it) if she doesnt want it becsuse she would sooner starve than eat something she doesnt want. We are throwing away so much food. She went in today with some money to get a meal deal. I dont know that she will. She'll probably just give me the £5 back when she gets home. She told her friends that there was no food at home last week. Her friends rightly told the teachers who then tried to get her to have a school lunch. There is plenty of food at home (including food she likes) but she didnt want any of it but she didnt say that. Now school will be watching her eating which may or may not be a good thing.

Because she is talking to me again (in bits and on her terms) I think her body image is (sadly) normal. She'll point at bits she doesn't like but overall, there isnt anything screaming out at me. She wore shorts this summer which was a big thing. She is very lean like her dad but she wants to bulk up a bit so we've agreed to get her a gym membership. We've talked about healthy bodies etc and she seems to get it.

She walks past a supermarket now so we've said we can give her some money and she can pick up her own food (or we can help). She was really enthusiastic until it came to it and then she "cant be bothered".

I am concerned about food and assuming the rest of the week goes OK, Im going to properly talk with her about it. We've told her before that we are worried about it but at the time we didnt feel it was "safe" to push that but I feel like we probably can now.

Such an odd thing the other night though. There is an annual event and this is the first time we've let her go with no adults. She wanted to be out until 10 which is too late. One of the books said about letting teenagers "win" sometimes so we said to be back by 9 but then we let her "negotiate" us up to 930. In reality, we had always planned the 930 curfew but she was delighted that she'd persuaded us to give her the extra 30minutes. She was so focussed on the extra time and forgot that she "lost" 30mins. She got back at 915 and said that she didnt want to be late because we had trusted her. Of course we acknowledged that and we chatted about the event. She said that she's realised we're "pretty chill as far as parents go" and some things are "stupid" but generally thinks we're "alright"! Wow! I asked her to repeat it for the tape and she rolled her eyes and said she was going to bed. 🤣

On to the husband... so at the beginning of the summer holidays I ended up crying in a shopping centre toilet because of her behaviour. I text my husband and basically said he was undermining me, wasn't supporting me, was blaming me etc. He denied it. I refused to go on holiday with them becsuse I knew he wouldnt back me up and I needed a break. I dont think he believed me until I was stood on the platform waving the train off and I think that shocked him. They had a lovely time and I spent a week in blissful silence recharging. They came back and she kicked off over something and I think he saw what I was talking about. He said he was just trying not to take sides. I said he wasnt Switzerland and he acknowledhed it looked like he wasnt backing me up. He has been a lot better. He hasnt said "I wasnt there, I dont know what happened" since. He still cant bring himself to say "I wasnt there but I believe your mother" so will say things like "I wasnt there but what is going to happen now is..." so I'll take that.

One other thing that gives me a bit of hope.

Her boyfriend of a year started off very, very sweet but a few red flags started popping up.

I've seen some and she has mentioned some to me as well so Ive been gently discussing them with her eg "if dad did that Id think he didnt trust me" or "that sounds rude. How did you feel?". Sometimes Ive had eye rolls or "I know this. You dont need to talk to me about healthy relationships" but occassiknally she has properly opened up and does come to me with them which I never did with my parents.

Anyway, he did something last week and she dumped him because he disrespected her boundaries. She was in a foul mood (understandably) but did explain before slamming her bedroom door.

I'm proud of her for having and sticking to her boubdaries and I think the fact that she said "I've dumped my boyfriend I dont want to talk to you" before slamming her door is a huge step forward! A few momths ago she would have just screamed imcoherantly and slammed her door.

Great to hear there’s some light at the end of the tunnel. All the best.

I found this book helpful - Untangled by Lisa Damour.

Such a lovely update! Well done for gritting your teeth, taking a big breath, making changes and hanging in there. What a reward for stubborn determination! 🎉🎉

So glad you are seeing these improvements! Steps in the right direction. You are a great Mum hanging in there for her.

Glad she's in a school that fits her needs and personality better. Some kids can adapt, some can't. Oh and very well done for sticking to your guns about the holiday. Actions speak louder than words and managing DD alone will have been educational for your DH!

She walks past a supermarket now so we've said we can give her some money and she can pick up her own food (or we can help). She was really enthusiastic until it came to it and then she "cant be bothered".

I guess that "can't be bothered" means "this is too difficult". Maybe she is overwhelmed by choice or doesn't know where to start? Does she need a list to take with her? Would she like you to talk through the list with her the first few times?

This all sounds as if it’s going in the right direction! Well done to you all.

We've offered to help so she knows we're happy to do it. She has written a couple of shopping lists and comes with us so we're focussing on getting her to write lists at the moment. Then at least she might eat what we've bought!

It's 90% risotto or shop bought tomato soup with pasta at the moment but that's fine. It's food. It helps that she's allowed to take in hot food to school so we're gently suggesting soup at the moment.

Although she did make a chicken sandwich this morning. She has some sores on her hands so asked me to break up the chicken for her. I'm vegan so that was pretty grim for me but I think I managed to do it without pulling too many faces. She was enthusiastic about taking it to school anyway so fingers crossed.

Small steps eh? Heading in the right direction.

My take on this is kids should be great full for the food they have. So many people now are selfish and so ungrateful. We have 4 teens. 1 out of the house and 2 aren't my own. My kids don't complain but my step kid does. He's 15 and says we starve him. Our fridge and freezers are packed full and we have a walk in pantry with tons of food. He won't eat breakfast and skips lunch usually if he's home from school. His choice as we again have tons on food. I personally don't care. I spend so much money on groceries. Go get a job and buy your own and quit complaining about the many blessings you have. His Dad feels the same. If he wants to starve himself then oh well. Gotta learn the hard way I guess. We only make 1 meal at meal times and thats what you eat. We do have make your own night and everyone just picks what they wants and makes small portions. This is only a few nights a month tho.
My honest suggestion would be tell her the rules and tell her if she wants to give lip then she can have chores to do. Soft parenting doesn't help these kids. I honestly don't see why we let kids fight us when we run the show for the most part. They don't pay for anything. I get letting kids make more decisions or be part of decisions at 16 or so but before then. Nope.

Pick your battles, listen and communicate.
Parenting teens isn't about power play and getting the upper hand, it's about helping them navigate a total brain rewire.
Never, Stop. Communicating

I missed this in the summer but wanted to say that you sound like a lovely mum! I’m glad things are better, and it really does sound as if you and your daughter have a strong, supportive relationship 💐

(FWIW and I know it’s beside the point- I too live in a tiny home and I am obsessed with the weather forecast for the same reason- if we wash all the week’s clothes and they can’t dry outside, it’s a challenge. We certainly can’t wash clothes, sheets, and towels at the same time!! So I hear you 100% on the need for a routine.)