What could I have done differently? 15yr old no tea

[Oollliivviiaa]

My 15yr old is being vile to me recently. Everything is my fault and some days she will barely speak to me. Yesterday she was awful to me all day. I got a half hearted apology in the evening.

She has taken to moaning about everything we give her to eat. We've asked her what she wants and within reason try to accommodate it (recognising that others have to eat it, time constraints etc). However she just says "I dunno" if we ask her so Ive started just cooking. That always end up with "ugh I dont want it". Tonight I started cooking and she demanded to know what I was cooking. She likes it but if I told her, she would have moaned and I just cant be bothered so I said "it'll be done soon, can you set the table please". She started moaning so I said "it doesnt matter what it is because you'll moan that you dont like it anyway". Not the most helpful comment I know.

Anyway she stormed off to her room because of that comment and has decided shes not going to eat tea (she still doesn't even know what it is!). Her dad went up to tell her it was done and she refused to come down. Ive gone up just to say that if she doesnt eat it, there wont be anything else until breakfast and if she doesn't eat it tonight, it will be reheated for tomorrow's tea. (It reheats well so Im not serving her anything horrible). I wasnt being confrontational or anything like that. She made a sarcastic comment so I just walked away.

She's not come down so I guess shes not having tea.

Its just All. The. Time. It is constant. I am worn out and as awful as it sounds, Im struggling to care that she hasn't had tea (she had a big dinner, she wont starve).

FYI - she refuses to help. Sometimes she wont even stay in the same room as me.

Her dad / my husband is of no use and just sits on the fence. I dont feel like he ever has my back. Yes, that's a husband problem etc etc.

So, how could I have stopped this? What could I have done differently?

Before anyone suggests it, her cooking her own food isnt an option for a myriad of reasons and would actually cause more problems than it solves. Plus, its not really relevant anyway.

If she's not engaging with you for ideas then leave her to it. Ignore the subject and do what you usually do. Just don't make it an issue.

Presuming that she doesn't have an eating disorder or sensory issues then she can join you at the dinner table.... or not.

(That said maybe have a couple of "treat" meals that you know she likes).

Similar aged DD here and she has so much going on with hobbies and friends that our eating times don't always match up and doesn't always like our dinner choices so she has her own section in the freezer for things she can bung in the air fryer at a time that suits her and always the makings of sandwiches/wraps/beans on toast.
Why is this not an option?

Can you sit down together and plan a menu for the week? Everyone then takes turns to cook. At 15 she is old enough to be cooking regularly. Let her help you do the food shop?
She’s at a difficult age - just love her!

Joyful, isn’t it? OP, I feel your pain 😆

What could you have done differently?

1. Not said she’d have to have it reheated
2. You can write down meals that you’re going to make each week (say she can be involved if she wants but if she doesn’t then you’ll go ahead and plan meals without her) and if she doesn’t want it then she can cook her own. It doesn’t need to be a battle. She either eats what you’ve cooked or she doesn’t. Just get on with your life.
3. Have a discussion with your husband? About the fact he doesn’t stand firm with you on things. Do marriage counselling.

She sounds very much like a younger version of me.
I am in the process of being diagnosed with ADHD. I find household tasks hard… I find it hard to take in instructions and also get on with them and be proactive. I find it incredibly hard to cook and follow recipes. I find change hard and having pressure put on me to do things.
I also have ARFID which is connected to ADHD and is an eating disorder.

You do seem to control things (like the laundry) and it seems like she’s walking on eggshells with you too.

I think you need to sit down with her when things are calmer and apologise for the way you’ve been handling situations and say that you both need to work together. You need to work on things yourself and she needs to work on things too. You both need to come up with a plan of how to make things easier in regards to chores etc

Its a school only for year 10 -13. Shes always wanted to go. We think it will suit her and she will be happier but we have made it very clear it is completely her choice and we will support her whatever she does.

She is very enthusiastic about it but there will of course be sadness and worry too. We are expecting that to hit over the summer when we start getting new uniform etc.

I dontbthink Im being niave aboit sex. One thing she will always talk to me about is her boyfriend. We talk about boundaries and safe sex and there is eye rolling but we do talk and we do listen to each other. In the past shes had questions about condoms etc which she has felt comfortable asking and Ive tried to be open.

He is autistic and before they started going oit he made it very clear that holding hands and the occasional peck on the check/lips was all that would be possible. My daughter is still revolted by the idea of kissing or sex generally so that works well for her!

I think she will like the idea of having a budget to go food shopping with by herself.

He is autistic

And she isn't? She may not have a formal diagnosis but there are reasons these two young people are together. Birds of a feather.

Do bear in mind that people with autism can change their minds very suddenly and you may be the last to know.

Neurodiverse people DO tend to get along well with other neurodiverse people - I say that as a "totally NT" person who always got along well with people who had autism- I'm seeking my own diagnosis now aged 53!

It also runs in families.

Whether or not she is neurodiverse, she does seem to be consistently acting out at the person she is closest to. That's a common thing in NT and ND young people, when they are worried about something. The school change - even though it's instigated by her, is the obvious big one.

Is there an adult who she gets on well with who she might open up to a little bit more? One of her friend's parents or a teacher?

I think it sounds like you're doing a really good job of staying level headed (whilst also being a real life fallible human) most of the time. It's also fairly well recognised that when an adult changes their parenting style with a teen, the teens often (usually) act out even more for a while! Stay as consistent as you can. Hold your boundaries gently but firmly. "I'm sorry that you're feeling frustrated with me. I don't accept being shouted at. If you want to talk to be calmly later on, you can do."

There are some good videos on you tube about Non-violent communication. I would think it would be worth using with her - I think it's worth using with everybody, to be honest. It is a way of wording things that removes all words and phrases that sound like blame.

It might also be worth trying to identify the emotions that they are feeling and acknowledge them - this can be especially helpful for teenagers who are often feeling big emotions but don't necessarily yet have the skills to identify and capacity to hold them. When she yells at you for not magically cooking the right dinner for her: "It sounds like you're feeling frustrated. Would you like to tell me as calmly as you can what's going on, or would you like to leave the room and have some private time?" If she yells at you from this, "I'm sorry that you're having big feelings. I'm not going to stand here and be shouted at. Would you like to leave the room until you are calmer or shall I?"

and I know it's not about food, but since you said you're quite worried that she isn't eating enough... are there cereal bars, or crisps that she likes? Something fairly long life rather than fruit, although dried fruit would work. I'm just thinking you could pop some of them in her room and in her school bag. It sounds as if she maybe feels as if once she's stormed off, coming back down would be backing down and that's not something she is willing to do - to such an extent that she will miss multiple meals because of it. If she always has a stash of cereal bars, she can at least eat something without "backing down" and feeling like "mum has won".

other things that you could try:

1. Since she won't talk to you about it you're guessing what it is that she's actually worried about, but you could start conversations about things that you (secretly) think she might have on her mind.

2. Techniques that work well with ND people tend to also work with NT folk, so there's really no downside in trying some of them out :)

"I know you're looking forward to going to X school in September. Would you like to visit it again before they close for the summer? (would help to reduce some anxiety about finding her way around the new buildings, meeting her new teacher, what to do and where to go on her first day). Share with her any suitable communications you have from the new school.

Sensory overwhelm and sensory stimulation-seeking is a THING for ND people but also does no harm for NT people. You mention that the walkman helps her to self-regulate. It might be worth having things like squishmallows, low lighting, blackout blinds, a weighted blanket available to her. Don't tell her you got them for her to calm down with(!) but just casually pop them on the end of her bed so she finds them when she comes in from school one day. It might be worth Dad modelling some behaviour around them, like having a weighted blanket in the lounge that he pops over his legs and he just so happens to mention within earshot of her how it helps him unwind after a difficult day.

This is exactly what I would do too.

Just tweak it to whatever she ‘hates’ at the time.

She sounds exactly like my autistic 17 year old son, who also has a Pathological Demand Avoidance profile. The behaviour and lack of response to rewards along with windows and curtains being shut all the time, he is exactly the same. As others have suggested, it would be worthwhile reaching out to the GP for a referral for an ASD assessment. It's interesting to see that her boyfriend is autistic because they are often attracted to others on the spectrum. It sounds like she is masking at school and letting it all out when she gets home. My son eats in his room because he can't cope otherwise, not ideal but it works for us.

Autism - when she was about 6/7ish, school carried out an autism indicator assessment thing with her. Obviously not a full assessment but she was seeking sensation (is that how you phrase it?) and a few other things that I cant remember. The assessment came back as no concerns. As school had raised it, we insisyed on meeting with the school SEND lead and she carried out a more in depth assessment and sat in a couple of lessons. Although not a full assessment, she also said no. I do believe she would have told us to get a proper assessment if she felt there was any issue.

She has since grown out of a lot of the "symptoms" such as constantly leaning on things.

When we met with her current school SEND lead (she has dyslexia and was having issues with an IT programme) we mentioned it and again, she spoke with her teachers who said there were no concerns.

She is well behaved at school so I would undetstand something like autism slipping through the cracks but none of the teachers raised a concern when specifically asked.

We've met with SEND at her new school and they seem pretty on the ball. They had an infinitely more practical approach than her current school. When stufents start, they undertake a range of assessments, academic and otherwise because obviously they need to hit the ground running and there isnt time for additional learning needs to be missed.

We are planning on arranging a meeting with them a few months into term about her dyslexia.

As for the comment about ND people attracting ND people, yes but equally there are plenty of ND and NT couples eg my brother is NT and his wife is ND and my best friend is NT and her partner is ND.

She opens her curtains and windows when asked/reminded. Like her dad though, she just doesnt think/remember to. I dont think its any deeper than that.

(Before anyone jumps on me for being controlling, most of the time I just leave her curtains/windows to her or will occassionally open them myself which she is fine with).

You can have autistic traits without the full blown autism.

Interesting that school considered it though.

Back to PDA - this is the autism that they say is often where you keep thinking of autism but then you decide no, but then....

Anyway, three girls in my daughter's primary class were diagnosed with autism. My daughter in year 5, purely down to me being proactive with CAMHS (school wouldnt believe the diagnosis when we got it!!). I got her an ehc plan and a place at a small sen school. Another girl on the last day of year 6 - she went to the local comp, couldnt cope, crashed out at Xmas. And the third not until she crashed out of uni.

School had not picked any of them up. There were 10 boys in the class with an autism diagnosis (it was an unusual class!). School were onto them right away. But they missed the girls.

I think this is really common. Girls mask better.

Anyway, she may be displaying asd behaviours and these could spiral if she gets anxious and feels unsupported .

I have to pick up on this. Deciding what school to go to should never be “completely her choice” because, of course, that makes it completely her responsibility. And I think that’s way way way too much responsibility to dump on the shoulders of a teenage child.

We moved DD for Year 10, and I made it very clearly that while we listened to her views ultimately it was our decision and our choice, which has stood us in good stead when she’s wobbled, felt down about missing her old friends etc etc. Our choice, our responsibility. It has worked out fine but I would never have put that on her shoulders.

As you might know, dyslexia can often come hand in hand with neurodivergence. Yes of course NT folk can have relationships with ND folk and dyslexia doesn't have to come with neurodivergence. And girls learn to mask far, far better than boys do, especially during school hours, then it all goes sideways when they can relax at home. I honestly really wouldn't rule it out completely, even if a diagnosis isn't on the cards. Like a lot of things, trying out strategies that work well for neurodivergent people won't hurt if she isn't, and may help if she is. And they may help if she isn't. On the flip side, assuming that she definitely isn't, and using strategies that work with NT people but absolutely don't with ND people, well, that can cause a bit of a pickle.

It was a Psychologist that mentioned that ND people were attracted in both a positive and a negative manor. Following diagnosis of both my boys I have seen this to be a fact with my children and their peers. Of course there are NT and ND couples, my husband is ND and I assume I'm NT, but my father and Grandmother have very strong ND traits so it perhaps in my genetics. Girls mask more than boys and tend to get diagnosed later. Even if she isn't PDA, the tactics help with anxious children so it's worth a try.

One of my ND boys had eating issues and his diagnosis opened the doors to a specialist psychologist and a dietician. He now eats normally.

Your brother and best friend both being married to ND people makes sense as I would suspect they are also ND as are you are your daughter.

I was married to an autistic man for 20 years and was very NT. Except I have raging adhd it turns out.

And all of my friends are ND. Some undiagnosed but very obvious.

I imagine she is masking a lot and exhausted.

What were your parents like growing up?

Great, so now we are diagnosing this girl as ND based partly on the fact that her mums friend is married to someone who is. It could also be that she is being rude and abusive, which many teenagers are. Some grow out of it and some don’t and turn out to be rude abusive adults who treat others badly. I just find it fascinating that people are falling over themselves to attribute this awful behaviour to having some sort of condition. Yet when someone (eg Gregg Wallace) says their vile abusive behaviour is due to being ND then nobody will hear of it. Why is that? Surely if being ND makes you treat your mum like absolute shit on a daily basis then why not other forms of abuse.
At the end of the day, being ND doesn’t excuse vile behaviour and id put this girls conduct in that category.

I don’t think anyone is excusing the behaviour and it doesn’t make it OK. But the OP wanted some advice on things she can do differently. Using a PDA type approach could be successful even if she doesn’t have PDA! The low demand approach and low arousal approaches can calm a situation and create safety.

It is a bit daft isnt it. Claiming that my brother's wife being ND has anything to do with my daughter's poor behaviour. And my NT best friend's partner being ND means that I am. It's not catching. Its like 7 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

I am looking into some of the de-escalation techniques. I appreciate that we cant keep swopping and changing though.

My parents once lived next to someone who had what (I think) would now be called ADHD. Care to diagnose my entire family with that too?

People can have ND friends and partners without being ND themselves. What a limited and insulting way of thinking that ND people can only possibly be friends with ND people.