To think “gentle parenting” is just a rebrand of being too afraid to say no?

[TheEdgyTiger]

Not everything needs to be a feelings-based negotiation.

A natural consequence is directly linked
That's a logical consequence.
A natural consequence is getting run over, losing your teeth to fillings and extractions, nobody at school liking you if you are mean to them.
Younger children, and older ones with SEN, don't link actions to natural consequences.

Immediate consequences are more likely to prevent the behaviour in the future (and no, I don't like it when my DC hits me so I don't want them to do it again, of COURSE I disapprove and yes my child should be ashamed. There is such a thing as good shame).
But negative consequences aren't that effective for some children so reinforcement of positive behaviours (staying calm when things are tricky, helping round the house) and no reaction to negative behaviours (no "how does that make you feel" or "gosh that must be hard for you", just no response) makes them happen less.

As I say, there is something other than relentless unhelpful empathy and shouting at your children.

WE HAVE A GENTLE PARENTER!! 👆🏻

But that's the only level of choice they should be offered - do you want to play with your lego or watch Bluey? Do you want to wear the red t shirt or the blue t shirt.?

It's not about giving them complete autonomy but about recognising that they might have a preference and letting them know that their voice matters.

Yes, I'm saying that is the only type of decision they should be required to make.

As for 'letting them know their voice matters' yeah, I have no time for that sort of navel gazing nonsense. Especially when applied to small children.

But you've just redefined punishment here in a way that makes it seem arbitrary, which isn't inherent in the meaning at all.

But that’s not what natural consequences are meant to be though. True natural consequences are things that happen without anyone else intervening.
So a child plays too rough with a toy. The toy breaks. That is a natural consequence. If the adult gets involved and removes the toy it isn’t natural anymore. The natural consequence of eating too many sweets could be the child feels or gets sick. The natural consequence of hitting other children would be the child doesn’t have any friends. I’m not saying all these things should be allowed to happen. But these are the actual natural consequences.
Natural consequences are meant to allow the child to figure out and learn what happens if they do things they shouldn’t. You break your toy by throwing it and now you don’t have your toy anymore. A linked consequence would be removing the toy because there was adult intervention. Whether you want to call it a punishment or not is a grey area. Someone removing the toy could say they use consequences. Some might call it a punishment. But not natural consequences.

If I roamed about the Maasai Mara and got eaten by a lion that’s a natural consequence. If I got arrested then that’s a linked consequence.

^^ This is spot on.
The people who don’t want to parent use the term as an excuse to why they aren’t going to deal with their child’s behaviour.

I know! This is what I was thinking reading all the replies! From the descriptions here, it just sounds like non-abusive parenting - which, I think most of us responding I hope actually do. You don't need to call it a fancy name: aka "gentle parenting" 🫩

Using as an insult 'this person aligns themselves with parenting in a way that takes their kids feelings into account when holding boundaries' isn't the gotcha you think it is

Except it was a .and concept in the 90s when the gentlest parenting anyone had seen was super nanny holding screaming children on steps parroting 'this is unasseptable' in their faces.

It's not just not abusive parenting either though, it's holding boundaries without punishment and focusing on long term development not just behaviour in the moment. It's letting kids express being upset even though it can be extremely annoying. 'wah I'm wildly upset about not getting a toy' could easily be met by 'stop crying in the shop right now, stop being a baby's which is unintentionally harmful while something more like 'yesh, you're disappointed you can't get a toy, that's hard, im going to have to keep shopping, can you get up yourself or do you need picked up?'

But back in the real world- at 14/15 that's not going to work is it ? It's setting them up for failure and entitlement.

I'm a 'gentle ' parent, but I don't do that guff. When mine were that age, if hysterical behaviour did occur such as what you're describing, I'd completely ignore them (no words of any kind) the only thing I might have said is "mummy will talk to you when you're calm" strapped them in a buggy seat, let them cry, then carried on what I had to do. Then the minute there was a break in their wailing, then I'd start talking to them normally. "Oh look is that Timmy from your class over there ?". That way they weren't "punished" for their emotional outburst, but they learnt that similarly screaming because they couldn't have a chocolate bar at the till wasn't going to work. When they're toddlers and very small you cannot reason with a 'tantrumming' child. It's literally impossible. Lengthy monologues of cause and effect are for adolescents, not toddlers. They'll hear white noise and have learnt unreasonable behaviour still gets mummy bending down on her knees and acknowledging them with lots of "sweethearts" chucked in. It's ridiculous. Be the parent.

It'd not a rough council estate walloping, abusive name calling parenting style Vs good insightful middle class perfection you know ?

I'm extremely insightful, reflective, analytical and thoughtful of how I bring up my children (due to 'faults' in the way I as a girl was raised ) but I still don't compromise with 'sweetheart' toddler who's kicking off because they can't get the dinosaur in the shop....

Oh well I won’t sleep tonight.

spoiler: I will because I’ve steered clear of gentle parenting and my kids have very clear and strong boundaries, can behave and are familiar with the word no.

In fairness strapping them in a buggy isn’t going to work at 14/15 either, is it?

My children have clear and strong boundaries and brilliant behaviour, my eldest has ADHD and a seizure disorder and STILL his school report lists his behaviour as exemplary. Because of gentle parenting.

My eldest if you'd acted like that would have been so distressed he have vomited. He has additional needs.

How are containing your 14/15 yr old? Because teaching a child it's ok to acknowledge being disappointed let's them see they are allowed to be sad. Strapping them in a buggy and ignoring them while they struggle with an emotion they don't understand teaches them there's no point telling you. Good luck strapping your 14 yr old in a buggy. The aim with giving them names for emotions is to end up with a situation where my 7 yr old can now say 'im really disappointed I can't have a toy, I really wanted that's and I can say, well we can take a photo for your Xmas list and see if you still want it by then. And on we move.

At 18 I was still describing anxiety as 'that feeling you get before an exam' when it was cropping up for non study reasons. My son can tell me when he's anxious and has tools to deal with them which is massively important in managing his ADHD symptoms and because I and his school support him with that he has amazing behaviour

@Barnbrack when my 13 year old talks and talks and says "please please can I have X" a hundred times or my 11 year old screams YOU'RE SO UNFAIR empathising and telling them they are so lovely does not work. It just feeds the behaviour.
Ignoring however does work. No once with a reason if relevant (I don't need to tell them that sweets are bad for their teeth or they are too young for WhatsApp, yet again, because they know). Then no further talk.

As a PP has said, tantrumming is worth it if it gets you a hug and mummy feeling sorry for you, as well as if it gets you sweets.

It really does seem to be news to a lot of parents that attention breeds tantrums.

No. But if they get to 15 and have had a lifetime of lengthy explanation and compromises instead of being told "no" they're probably going to be a 15yr old you're going to have problems with.

You do you. My children are exceptionally well rounded and emotionally mature thanks to my parenting.

You cannot compare a child with extra needs to what I'm describing for my child without additional needs - that's just wilful antagonism.

I shouldn't imagine lengthy monologues would have worked too well for a child with additional needs either. But as I say, you do you.

I agree with this, but I also think that it depends on the kid. Some children thrive on this, but in my experience they’re the more sensible, sensitive children who aren’t constantly asking for things that you couldn’t reasonably say yes to (sugary snack just before dinner etc). My kid is not this kid- I tried gentle parenting, but because he’s quite a demanding child, I found myself talking with him about his feelings all day because he’s gone through phases of seamlessly moving from one unreasonable request to the next. And as he put it, ‘so you’re telling me you KNOW and UNDERSTAND that I’m sad and frustrated, so why are you still saying no???’ I did my absolute best to phrase it in ways that he could ‘get’, but for him it was WAY worse than just being told no because from his point of view, if I sympathised with how he felt, and still said no, I didn’t actually care about his feelings. He’s always been happier with a firm ‘no’ and a one-sentence explanation (we’re about to eat dinner, for example).

Also found that discussing his feelings had the effect of making him hyper-focus on them and end up in a worse situation than he started in. I tried a more ‘gentle parent’ conversation with him the other day and he said ‘I’m frustrated but I’ll feel better in a minute, but if you keep talking about my feelings, I’ll feel frustrated all day! I want to be cross and then think about something else!’ That was me told 😆 Of course, I do talk to him about feelings, but trying to do it when he’s actually feeling those angry/frustrated feelings is a guaranteed way to make him explode with annoyance at me. Sadness is different, he needs supporting through those kinds of feelings so I make sure I do. Bringing him up has made me realise that he didn’t need my help to deal with anger, stomping off and a brief shout/thump around in his room was already working fine for him and he didn’t appreciate my efforts to help 😆 other children will, of course, be different. Whereas worry and sadness he needs LOTS of help with, which I readily give.

I have a friend with a very similar child and the validating and talking about feelings doesn’t work with him either. Both kids see us talking about their feelings over a ‘no’ as a sign that we’re still open to changing our minds, which is super stressful for them because they then feel like they have to keep going in case they can change the outcome, and it just escalates into a massive upset. Whereas if we’d just said no, very brief explanation and then that’s that, they would have grumped for a few minutes and then found something else to do.

On the other hand, other children I know NEED that type of discussion and would struggle with the way we do things in our family. The most important thing is to do whatever works best for you and the kids you have.

I shouldn't imagine lengthy monologues would have worked too well for a child with additional needs either. But as I say, you do you.
They work even less well than with a child with typical understanding.

Where did you get this 'lengthy monologue' nonsense?

What lengthy explanation? 'you can't have that sweet, I know you're disappointed, I'll wait for it to pass' then moving on isn't a lengthy mo ologue.

Because for an 11 and 13 yr old you'd hope you'd laid enough ground rules that they're not constantly asking or if they are they will understand 'weve talked about this, I'm not buying anymore Pokémon cards or whatever the what's it is this week, you've had your pocket money and you chose what to spend it on' even at 7 my eldest is able to understand that

There are no lengthy monologues, why would someone being a gentle parent come with lengthy monologues? Actually when he's dysregulated there's a lot of not talking at all and just sitting with him until he's calm.

It's direct and clear language we use, what do people think is going on with parents who gentle parent?

My children rarely tantrum with the approach I take. So the idea it feeds tantrums is very odd.