To think “gentle parenting” is just a rebrand of being too afraid to say no?

[TheEdgyTiger]

Not everything needs to be a feelings-based negotiation.

Exactly this. Boundaries and rules are important. Living in an environment where people are constantly on eggshells and discipline is achieved by shouting and bullying is never going to create trust and respect, only fear.

It is considered abusive when between a husband and wife: why should it suddenly be OK when its between a parent and a child. Yes the parent has absolute authority over a child in a way a spouse doesn't but ultimately a climate of fear will only incentivise children to find ways around the hurdles, as opposed to making them respect the boundaries.

But there are problems across the board. There's a thread in AIBU at the moment by a woman who doesn't like the tone of a message from her 18 year old daughter. Some of the responses are ridiculous - suggested responses are petty, punitive, combative and retaliatory and just aren't going to elicit a positive outcome.
The problem is that a lot of people don't have very high emotional intelligence, don't have any understanding of child development and normal stages of development or just assume their children will grow up knowing how to be a part of society and manage themselves and their emotions without any understanding of how they influence that as parents. Or just lack the skills themselves that we should all be instilling in children (eg resilience etc).

👏👏👏

You do know it's possible to not scream and shout and yet also not analyse everyone's every single feeling?

Could I ask what the difference is between the words punishment (which some seem to see as really really bad) and natural consequences are in some situations?

I have a friend who talks a LOT about her gentle parenting and also says she will never punish and only use “natural” consequences.

But some of what she does to me isn’t really NATURAL consequences. For example if her son is playing rough with a toy she will remove the toy. If her keeps running off while out she’ll either make him hold her hand or they’ll go home. If he hits another child they go home. If he won’t put a coat or shoes on they just don’t go out.

Now I’m not saying I disagree with any of her responses at all. I think they’re fine. But surely none of these things are actually natural? They are all actions decided on by her. The natural consequence would be the toy gets broken, he potentially gets lost or hurt, he gets hit back and doesn’t have any friends, he gets cold and sore feet. She may not be using true punishment either such as sending him to his room or cancelling a trip out in the future. But by not going somewhere or removing a toy at the time it’s still very similar?

I think people like to use the terms natural consequences when really it’s just them still being in charge and deciding on the form of punishment/discipline. But no one likes to use those words anymore.

As I said I don’t disagree with her methods at all. It’s just how she gets so self righteous about using gentle parenting and natural consequences and thinks other people who don’t are terrible parents etc.

Yeah those aren’t natural consequences - Nat consequence of running into the road for example is getting hit, not having to hold a parent’s hand.

Gentle parenting is more about discipline in its true meaning of ‘teaching’ - see ‘disciple’. So it doesn’t mean anything cruel or harsh. Teaching from an effective and kind standpoint.

I hate the notion that children are “less than” because they’re small.

The problem is that a lot of people don't have very high emotional intelligence, don't have any understanding of child development and normal stages of development or just assume their children will grow up knowing how to be a part of society and manage themselves and their emotions without any understanding of how they influence that as parents. Or just lack the skills themselves that we should all be instilling in children (eg resilience etc).

Absolutely this - IME the people who moan most about children, being children are people who have little capacity to regulate their own emotions and think the world should bend and flex to ensure their optimal comfort at all times. Which obviously leads to a great deal of dissatisfaction and discomfort with interactions and experiences outside of their own home.

It’s ironic that those who shout the loudest and complain display the behaviours they’re objecting to, but they can’t comprehend that their attitude might be partly to blame for their own discomfort.

Exactly!
gentle parenting is no hitting no shouting
( which is the norm in Schools and work places ) kindness and some negotiation where appropriate

you can attach any label to any parenting style and can enact it in a really effective way or follow a parenting style and be doing a shit job
unless you live with someone 100% you can only see snap shot of their parenting

you may have just seen my child kicking off refusing to get out the car this morning and me sitting there all calm and say “ ok darling have a lovely day “. When you may have shouted, threatened and punished you may have looked at me and thought way doesnt she just grab that kid by the lapels and fling them into school

lets stop judging and start pulling together as parents as a team ?

I say no all the time, but I explain why. I allow them to feel their feelings and to talk about them, as a result they are very calm kids who never thrown tantrums or run amok, they know their boundaries and are happy and secure. If this is ‘gentle parenting’ then so be it. They are beautifully polite and well behaved kids.

The children they go to school with who are dragged up, who speak to adults like shit, hit other children, vandalise property and steal are modelling behaviours that they see, they are treated like shit by their parents and neglected and it comes out in their behaviour. These parents don’t care enough about their kids to put the effort in to ‘gentle parent’ they hardly parent at all.

Don’t even get me started on smacking or ‘clip round the ear’ you could go out tomorrow and commit an atrocity then get sent to prison and no one would be allowed to physically chastise you so it shouldn’t be allowed for children.

My parents hit me and I still remember the hatred I had for them, I would never want my DC to feel that about me.

Of course they are still good parents, saying no is often necessary, that doesn't go against gentle parenting principles. Saying something like 'we're not getting sweets in the shop today, I know that's disappointing' and giving a hug and carrying on would be gentle parenting. Saying 'for god sake stop asking about effing sweets or you'll get a clip round the ear' isn't. It's all in communicating kindly to kids. Poverty doesn't stop that.

I will caveat that by saying poverty can make it SO MUCH HARDER to be gentle, stress and worry makes it so much harder not to be reactive and we're all human. My mother was this amazing woman and mother who was in an impossible situation who put her life into raising 5 children with kidnest and love and respect. Unfortunately thwarted by my abusive dad and constant grinding poverty (and 5 kids in a catholic Ireland where no prevention was allowed) and she did her best. She was at times not gentle. But she tried all the time and was always aiming to take us for individuals. She died 12 yes ago and I'll never be over her. But with all the privilege in my peaceful, financially stable world I try to do better and follow her principles. I'd definitely say she was a gentle parent but one under strain. And any parents going through that and trying but struggling should know my mum was the most loved mother I've ever met. And she made mistakes but tried so hard. It's not the small moments where it all goes wrong that define how your kids see you, it's the overarching respect and kindness, I think anyway, based on my experience

Saying something like 'we're not getting sweets in the shop today, I know that's disappointing' and giving a hug and carrying on would be gentle parenting. Saying 'for god sake stop asking about effing sweets or you'll get a clip round the ear' isn't.

I know it's just one example but really, there are more ways than this to respond to a child. I am a kind person and have a very good relationship with my now adult children. I would not, however, have hugged them and told them how sorry I was about their disappointment in a shop if I'd had to say no, we're not getting that today. I would just have said it and carried on, looking for something to distract them with or talking about something else.

Mind you, I would clearly fail the gentle parenting test on a great many grounds. An often heard remark in our house was 'Enn Oh spells no.' My children understood this very well from an early age and have not grown up emotionally stunted because we failed to sit down and talk over every minor disappointment.

Agree with this. I think being emotionally responsive and understanding over life's big disappointments is absolutely appropriate. But I think the sweets example, when repeated over every minor thing may just be teaching them that small issues are a bigger deal than they really are. Kids look to adults to teach them appropriate reactions. Maybe jollying them along and distracting them is actually more helpful than agreeing with them that it's disappointing which reinforces that it's disappointing rather than no big deal.

I don’t call myself any sort of parent title.
I’m just doing my best. DS seems happy.

I think the problem is how people understand these named ‘parenting methods’

It's partly also that these things are, to varying degrees, a shot in the dark. They don't work in the same absolute way for every child, and yet people act like they do.

Attachment theory, gentle parenting, "don't call the child naughty, it's the behaviour" - none of it will work in exactly the same way for every child. Partly due to parents not being able to follow the technique exactly, partly because the disposition of the child or the exact circumstances aren't appropriate.

Funnily enough I had this at a work event.

We ran out of a particular non-essential item, and my colleague was practically cringing as he explained this. I was jolly, self-deprecating, apologetic, but didn't treat it as a big deal.

The people I dealt with went away happy, the people he dealt with went away looking disappointed.

I more or less try to be a gentle parent (though prefer Janet Lansbury's formulation of it as 'respectful' rather than 'gentle' - i.e. I'm in charge, but I respect that my children's perspective is different to mine, and also valid). I'm a bit shit at it in the sweets example because, for an easy life, I might occasionally lie and say we don't have money for sweets.* However - I would (a) just say 'no, we can't get sweets', and I might only (b) say 'yes it's disappointing' if the child then complained about not getting sweets. You don't need to preempt and acknowledge the emotions till they're actually having them. We never get sweets so 9/10 times my kids would just accept the 'no' as normal and there's no need to say anything else. But if they were upset, as a gentle parent I'd be thinking tough shit, but also, not my place to say it's not upsetting to them. They still can't have them though.

I find there are parents who are gentle, and then people who practice "gentle parenting" which is often just ineffective.

It's sometimes just an inability to say no, but what I find is that a lot of parents think that by discussing an issue, it makes it easier for the child and more respectful and equal. Which is not always the case at all. Sometimes it's much less stressful to the child to simply say, that's a no, and we won't discuss it, to model appropriate emotional responses, to assume resilience. Lots of children have to be told things before they are cognitively or emotionally capable of negotiating or understanding them. The goal at that age is often to create a good habit, understanding will come later.

I also think that trying to finesse children into going along with things can sometimes actually be an act of emotional manipulation by the parents. Sometimes kids don't want to do things and will be mad. That is ok, they can rage against us, but they still have to do it. Why pretend there is a "choice" about say, wearing shoes, when in fact their isn't? There will be enough of that when they get to voting age!

Yes it is. Invariably the parents I know who did Gentle Parenting are ineffectual and wishy washy in all other aspects of their life too.

I know this is controversial but I think we're putting way too much stock in kids' "feelings". A child can be absolutely catatonic that their banana was peeled the wrong way and have completely forgotten about it five seconds later. A lot of these feelings in the early years are primal and habitual and they don't have the capacity to reflect on them in any meaningful way. Watching parents trying to reason and rationalise with a two year old (who has barely figured out that they're an individual being with agency) is infuriating.

What a sensible post. When my children were little in the 90s it was new to me to see parents asking their children all the time to make decisions about things which my parents would just have presented to me as a done deal. Nine times out of ten the parent wasn't genuinely asking because it was obvious what needed to be done (go home now, sit down and eat a meal, brush teeth afterwards) but some parents seemed to be quite scared of just saying calmly and cheerfully what was about to happen whether their child wanted it to or not. The same ones who struggled with saying no and meaning no, for the most part.

9/10 times if my kids ask for something in a shop and I say no we move on without incident, the odd time they express disappointment why wouldn't I give a hug? Also the question I was answering was about a child whose parents couldn't afford treats ever and I imagine that would be handled differently. My kids no no sweets now doesn't mean no sweets ever. They get to choose a magazine once a month. I'll say 'not magazine day' if they ask at other times and that's grand. But I imagine it's different if you've to always say no

As someone who considers themselves a gentle parent I would t be trying to eason with a 2 yr old over a banana nor would I be reasoning with them because it's not age appropriate. OId either give them a safe space to play out their upset or give them a hug depending on what they needed. Noones discussing feelings over a banana with a 2 yr old 🙄

Absolutely. And constantly negotiating with your small child, constantly giving them choices, constantly evaluating the feelz with them Just. Makes. Them. Anxious.

Because they're overwhelmed and it frightens them that their parent appears indecisive and uncertain. Little children do not want agency over everything they do. They don't yet have the capacity to decide anything more than do they want to play with Lego or watch Bluey?

To me, punishment is about exerting authority. You did this and I didn't like it so now you can't have/do something you were looking forward to or you lose this completely unrelated privilege for the next 2 weeks for maximum emotional pain.

A natural consequence is directly linked. So, if I discover you lied, you lose the right to be trusted; if you don't clean the kitchen after baking, you lose the right to bake when you like; if you don't put your shoes on or get dressed then you're taken to school in your pyjamas.

Thebexamples you give are natural conseqinces. If you can't play nicely with a toy, you lose the toy. If you can't walk sensibly, you have to hold my hand, if you won't get dressed or put your coat on when it's cold and you want to go outside, you don't go outside.

A punishment would be being sent to bed early or not being able to have pudding after dinner. Completely unrelated and have no bearing on each other.

Natural consequences can be effective in those examples.

What about refusing to go to bed (so the natural consequence is you will be tired) or refusing to brush teeth or hitting your sister / friends? They are trickier to manage naturally.