To want to leave the US but DH is dead against it?

[BotAsp]

Bit of a rant tbh. We’ve been in the States nearly 6 years now (moved for DH’s job), and I’m just so done. The politics, the healthcare stress, the guns in schools — all of it. DD is 4 and starting pre-K in Sept and I’m lowkey freaking out. It all feels so alien and I just want her to grow up somewhere I don’t have to worry about lockdown drills or insane medical bills for a cough. I miss the NHS like mad.

DH thinks I’m being dramatic. He loves it here, his job is good, we’ve got a nice house, etc etc. But I feel so trapped. We barely have any proper support, I feel like I’m constantly having to translate everything — culture, language, even bloody humour. I’m homesick and just want to be able to pop round to my mum’s with DD and not need a 10-hour flight and 3 weeks off work to do it.

I’ve tried talking to him but he shuts it down every time. Says I’m not thinking long-term and we’d regret moving back. But honestly I don’t see how it’s worse than this? I’d take a smaller house and rain over anxiety meds and school shootings.

Has anyone been in this boat and come out the other side? Just feel like I’ve got no one to talk to here who gets it. Don’t want to drag DD back and resent DH forever but don’t want to stay and go quietly mad either.

Is it me? AIBU?

You must be a very sheltered woman if you've never been in a situation you can't defend yourself and you've just had to tolerate it and be a victim because you can't do anything about it. One of the reasons I like the states so much is I don't have to be a victim over there like I do here, while I wait for someone to come and save me in an hour because our police response time is so shit, so they can give the perpetrator a slap on the wrist and put them on a list you have to ENQUIRE over, not even a publicly available list. I'd take being able to defend myself over being able to get an abortion easily. The UK is a horrible place to live as a woman and it will only get worse. There are towns and cities I've gone to in the last decade where I feel like I'm in a no go zone with all of the horrible looks and attention you get after a certain hour.

Popping in to clarify a few things since the thread has derailed a bit.

From our AI overlords:

Stand your Ground Law Explanation

• Stand your ground laws, also called "shoot first laws," allow individuals to use force, including deadly force, to defend themselves against perceived threats without a duty to retreat, even in public spaces. These laws are based on the castle doctrine, which traditionally applied to self-defense in one's home.

Castle Doctrine Law Explanation:

• The Castle Doctrine is a legal principle that gives individuals the right to use reasonable force, including deadly force, to protect themselves against intruders in their home. This principle stems from the common law idea that "a man's home is his castle". In essence, it means you don't have a duty to retreat when faced with an unlawful intrusion in your home or other protected areas

Self Defense Law Explanation:

• Self-defense laws allow the use of force to prevent or terminate an unlawful interference with one's person. The force used must be proportional to the threat, and deadly force is justified only if the individual reasonably believes it's necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm.

Additional Info (me not AI):

• In all cases these are state laws vs. federal laws. Meaning that it will depend on the state if these are in play. If they are in play in a state there are often nuances within the law clearly defining the terms.
• States have varying combinations of all 3 laws with all of them having Self Defense laws.
• You can be charged with homicide and your defense would be based on one or more of the laws above. (I was personally close to a trial where somebody tried to use the castle doctrine and self defense to defend against homicide charges after shooting a police officer during a warrant search/arrest. He was unsuccessful with that defense).
• This also includes all force not just firearms. As an example: If I shoved a pickpocket that I caught with his hand in purse and he hit his head and died. With a stand your ground law I couldn’t be charged with unintentional homicide because I didn’t try to get away before shoving him.

So nobody is out there gunning down pickpockets as a general rule because the law might say that they can stand their ground.

The American import reference is not about the gun culture per se, it is about the politics behind it - i.e systems in society are unimportant, the world is nothing more than isolated individuals making decisions according to their own values and whims. Except we don't live in isolation and by withdrawing from your own community, as the individual is key, you are correspondingly losing the means of engagement necessary to guard the welfare of democratic liberalism, which suits those that want this to happen. In the UK, Reform are bringing this to a town near you and this is not in line with British values of community and civic duty.

It is kind of irrelevant that you come from a country where gun culture is the norm, I am commenting on a British based forum where gun culture is very much not the norm and I think we should resist this as much as possible.

Hyperbolic nonsense and I absolutely have been in a situation where I couldn't defend myself, at no point following that did I think shooting someone would have helped.

You don't think perhaps shooting the attacker would have done anything?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/51gM9IRg2ko?app=desktop

This is how a woman in the states would have handled it. Give it a watch.

Are you responding to me?

Yes, it would have done something, it may have killed or seriously injured either of us considering there was a mismatch off strength that is quite a high gamble.

But more importantly I'm not able to do that.

Of not "off".

American ‘gun culture’ is not exclusive to libertarianism and/or isolationism, and nor is support for gun ownership in the UK or elsewhere inherently anathema to belief in and engagement with democratic liberalism (which ironically is a philosophy that prioritizes the rights of individuals).

It’s relevant when you’re speaking of cultural norms as if they’re shared ones. Mumsnet may be British based but it is an international forum. This thread pertains to someone living in the U.S, so it shouldn’t be particularly surprising that it’s going to attract Americans and/or those of other nationalities may have lived or live in the U.S, sharing perspectives shaped by this that may not reflect your preferred one.

Obviously I'm sorry whatever happened to you and I won't assume to know the specifics of the situation.

But a woman in America with a CCW has the ability to protect herself. There might be a mismatch of strength from the getgo, but with training and a quick draw she can improve her chance of protecting herself. Every situation is different. But my initial post was on the general idea Americans have on the right to defend themselves and their property. A republican American will proudly defend themselves.

I wasn’t comparing it - as I said I’d never take my children to the US. But they DO happen in the UK. I have never had a real shelter in place order but I know schools that have (various reasons. One was near a tube station that was evacuated so they sheltered until the reason for the evacuation was confirmed etc).

I tell people all the time: from the outside looking in, it appears that US culture isn’t that different from our own, we speak the same language etc….but it’s SO different in ways you don’t really think about until you’re living in it. Tiny little differences that make you think “woah. That would never happen at home”
My DH is American 🤷🏻‍♀️😂 So it’s not like I have some weird hatred for Americans in general. Just find some of the day to day stuff with strangers really odd and uncomfortable.
I think the biggest one is the sense of entitlement and general selfishness in every aspect of life - especially when it comes to driving. It seems like as long as you get to where you’re going as quickly as possible, then fuck everybody else. There’s no courtesy for other drivers whatsoever, which in my area, results in multiple, often fatal car accidents per week. And it’s easy to see how it happens - people hop lanes on highways like they are on Whacky Races, and you’d think mirrors on cars are just there for decoration 🫠 In the U.K., you see someone poking their nose out of a junction, waiting for their clear time to get onto the main road, and 9 times out of 10, someone on the main road slows down to let them out right? Simply wouldn’t happen here.
Interaction with service staff in shops and restaurants. It’s so fake and overly try-hard nice, and it makes me really uncomfortable, especially in restaurants because I know that it’s not genuine - it’s a really hard push for a good tip. Go out for dinner in the U.K., you’ll usually get a waiter/ess greet you, take your drink order. Come back once to take your food order, come back once to make sure everyone is happy with their food. They’ll then usually come back once to clear plates and ask if you want dessert or more drinks or whatever. Here? Waiting staff are literally at your table every few minutes, asking if you need anything, if everything is ok, leaning over people’s food to fill glasses with endless water I didn’t ask for in the first place 🫠 And it’s all in an effort to earn the biggest tip possible - which in itself rattles me beyond belief. Not because 18 year old Brianna is trying so hard for the tip….but because Brianna has no choice because her billionaire CEO boss at the top of restaurant chain only pays her $3 an hour and she relies on the generosity of customers to pay her rent.
I could go on and on and on……but I think to sum it up, is the stark, cultural difference is the sense of “every man for himself” here in the states.
My DH says that he thinks it’s because a full scale international war has never been fought on US soil in the way the UK experienced The Blitz - where people had no choice but to pull together to survive, and that sense of community seems to have stuck around a lot more within British culture ever since. Whereas in the US, everyone over the past century has been sold the lie that is “The American Dream” - and that’s bred a culture of “well as long as I’m winning, fuck everybody else” - it’s become extremely apparent since the election in January, when topics like universal healthcare, universal school meals etc come up in conversation. A lot of people simply cannot fathom spending their hard-earned money to ensure that someone else doesn’t die in a hospital ER because they can’t afford health insurance. Whereas the vast majority of British people (people I know anyway 🤷🏻‍♀️😂) understand how invaluable universal healthcare is, and don’t begrudge their taxes paying for a service that benefits everyone.

Hmmm… I think you are pretty on target but with bad examples. Although I’ll give you traffic one depending on where you regularly drive… the term Massholes or FIBs didn’t come from nowhere! When at the same time somewhere in the upper Midwest there are 4 cars that have been stuck at at a 4 way stop sign for a month politely waving each other to go first 😁

I think that the biggest cultural differences can be more or less traced to the individualism focus vs the collective as you said. But I think the nuances are probably lost in your examples from the American perspective. Just as I’m sure I’d be clunky giving British examples as an American.

The biggest one is the idea that Americans as a whole are aggressively trying to get ahead at the cost of others. That is simply not true as a generalization. Most Americans more or less want to be left alone, to make their own decisions, to live a good life, to be successful, and for others to be and do as well. This is why ‘universal’ anything tends to be very polarizing.

I mean if you think about it. Our founding fathers basically gave Americans the blueprint and the authorization to overthrow the government they were creating 🤪 That is definitely going to leave a mark on our collective psyche!

I can appreciate everything you said.

I just think it all still feels very alien to me.
And you’re 100% right in saying location plays a massive part in all of it.
My FIL, Step-MIL, BIL & SIL all live in the tinest, rural little town in the Midwest. I love it there. It’s such a slow pace of life. FIL works in the emergency services, plays golf, watches football, enjoys a few beers at the local dive bar - and that’s his life. Everyone knows everyone because the town is so tiny, but it’s also close enough to a massive metropolitan city to be able to spend a day shopping or go to restaurants etc - I could absolutely see us settling there if the opportunity came about.
But where we currently live? It’s one of the biggest tourist destinations on the planet and not family friendly at all. It’s a very transient city in that people come here for work, stay a couple of years and then move on. There’s no sense of community whatsoever. It feels a bit like living in a zoo most of the time 🫠😂 I also think the fact that we aren’t here by choice also bothers me way more than it should. I knew what I was getting into when I married DH 🤷🏻‍♀️ I knew we wouldn’t get a choice in where we live, it’s literally luck of the draw. Usually I adapt to a new place pretty quickly and get stuck into what the location has to offer….but that’s really hard to do here because the city is designed for adults, not families. And as a result of it being a massive tourist destination, the price gouging is the worst I’ve ever seen anywhere I’ve been in the world. We do get minuscule discounts for locals at some of the more family friendly places, but those are few and far between.
I can’t wait to leave.
I think if it was just me & DH, I’d feel very differently. I’d probably love the fact that we live in an adult playground 🤷🏻‍♀️😂

Democracy isn't about individuals, it is about government by the people, it isn't supposed to be focused on culture wars, where the government governs by reacting to the individuals' desires and fears, where the only common consent amongst its citizens is the individuals' personal happiness. If you do not understand your civic duties or your part in shaping the substantial issues that inform government policy, then this isn't freedom of choice as you haven't learnt how to choose, you are too busy frothing over sanctimonious feelings of victimhood e.g. to deny me (the individual) my right to arms is unconstitutional. This is very much what is happening in US politics and it is a purposeful distraction and deflection that suits certain people in power. This is what Reform are replicating, so I think this whole argument about Gun culture and defending ones stuff is very much a manifestation of the culture of the individual and very undemocratic, we import it and embrace it at our peril, here in the UK!

I think Mumsnet is and always has been a British based forum that has international visitors. Yes, it is about living in the US but the poster is British and is looking to return home, I think that is the relevant bit of her post.

Thanks for your understanding I wasn't using my situation to garner sympathy, just to say I'm not sheltered.

I very much feel it is not within me to do that harm though and I think it could easily go wrong and become a risk to innocent people around you.

Tony Martin i think was his name
He shot the guy as he was running away
that’s what got him charged the fact that the burglar was no longer a threat to him as he was running away

but I don’t disagree with the right to defend your home and family and if some crack head junkie burglar gets offed - well they should be a robbing peoples homes

Who is frothing? The right to bear arms is indeed a constitutional right (that is not a ‘feeling’, it’s a statement of fact), and as such many do feel quite strongly when they perceive that right to be under threat.

You referred to ‘democratic liberalism’, hence my own reference to basic liberal principles. The UK of course does not practice ‘true’ democracy after the Athenian model. As far as I am aware, no country actually does due to the obvious flaws with it. Liberal democracy explicitly seeks to uphold and protect the rights of the individual by limiting governmental overreach. Individual rights and freedoms are also a core facet of Parliamentary and representative democracy as practiced in the west, so to say it’s ‘not about individuals’ is incorrect.

Sure, and people have responded to her accordingly. Conversations about the cultural differences between, and perceived positives and negatives of both countries, have also occurred as they are invariably wont to do on these threads. If you dislike it you are free not to engage.

I hope you’re managing to read the advice @BotAsp and not be too derailed by the gun debate 😬😅

A chief of police in Florida talked about this recently.
On the news, he outright said something along the lines of: “If someone breaks into your home and you shoot them, please make sure you kill them because it saves us a lot of resources in the form of paperwork and man hours”

Exactly. That video made me feel very happy.

I considered moving to Florida once, but I'm scared of the alligators.

I for one am glad we don't practise democracy after the Athenian model! Not many people on Mumsnet would have the right to vote, for one thing.

One major step the US could take towards being more representative would be to change the hopelessly undemocratic Senate. Two seats for California (pop. 39m) and two for Wyoming (pop. 600k) is like two seats for Manchester and two seats for about 70% of the whole of the remaining population of England. But it will never happen.

Having 2 senators per state was a deliberate decision the founding fathers made to ensure equal representation for all states in the senate - so very populous states couldn't run roughshod over states with a smaller population. The constitution would never have gotten off the ground had it not been for a compromise ensuring that smaller states couldn't be outvoted by larger states in all cases. The house of representatives, on the other hand, is based on population.

I'm scared of the alligators

That’s why you own a gun 🤪.

Although for anyone interested it is common for cities to have specific ordinances about discharging firearms with city limits. I do not know if the castle doctrine or stand your ground laws apply to alligators 🐊

I mean you could probably use one if one was attacking you and your life was in danger. But you couldn't just go up to an alligator roaming about and shoot it dead.