Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I suggest that you then perhaps disprove the alleged misinformation, posted by those who for the overwhelming part have actually been medical professionals. You say it's easy - well then do it. This is AIBU and therefore an area which invites debate. AIBU is not an area for didactic teaching by an OP and maybe an assistant.

I can see misinformation in this thread for sure - or at least a great deal of noise, repetition, meaningless snippets from X or Reddit etc. But that's not been from the group that you're referring to.

From where I'm standing the misinformation, or misunderstanding perhaps, seems to be one way and the lines of argument - as far as there's any logic to them - have shifted considerably across the various threads.

Definition of thread disruption:

A user who posts irrelevant or disruptive content or misinformation often repeatedly to derail a conversation.

The impact is it can make it difficult for genuine users to have a productive discussion.

Any medical professional that does not believe the UK should give priority to its own graduates above IMGs is welcome to write to Wes Streeting and Dr Prestly. Regarding the tangential posts it may be sensible to start individual threads for these.

This thread is about UK MG unemployment and for UK to prioritise its own graduates.

On that definition you couldn't claim any thread disruption whatsoever.

All that's happened is that others who don't share your view that all UK MGs are cut out for higher training beyond F2, have expressed that view (ie YABU) and given their reasons as to why that is and what the consequences might be were training to be universal and only a rebuttable assumption in very extreme cases.

You may prefer to keep the thread uber narrow so as to suppress other views being aired but on each and every thread there have been opposing views, for those most part sensibly expressed and with significant professional experience informing them.

Can we take it that you won't be disproving the misinformation that you said it was so easy to disprove? As OP, that probably does fall to you. Otherwise the basis of this thread just gets increasingly eroded, as you fail to answer all reasonable questions put to you.

I would leave them to it, if I were you. They're not interested.

Left to their own devices this barmy thread will end, there is a limit to the number of times anyone can say "Awesome isn’t it. Confirming UK grads will get priority" and "Wes is listening".

Oh...hang on...

Would you be able to explain to me what Wes is saying please? I admit to having got a bit lost reading through this thread. Is it that there will be more F3 roles made available? Has he said nothing about reducing the ability of IMGs to apply for speciality training places? I had inferred from what I had read that this will be happening but genuinely keen to hear if you disagree. I ve tried to read the thread but find comments like this confusing as you are saying something and I’d like to know what! I have a dd just finishing second year and mumsneedwine has been amazingly supportive and given so much time and I’m very grateful for her being around here. I’d just like to clear up what your view is as it feels to me like the truth might be somewhere here to get my head around ?

Yep. I got the lack of interest in logical and/ or informed points some way back Marchesman 😂

And gosh you're an optimist. I don't think there's any limit at all on 'Awesome....' etc.

Byeeeeeee

@knitnerd90 this is how many applicants applied to a different number of specialities.

Probably best to wait until next month Thethingswedoforlove to let the DoH publish it's plan. People on this thread are finishing Wes Streeting's sentences for him and hearing what they want to hear at the same time as failing to pick up the fact that he's already flicked in a few qualifications here and there and clearly stated that there won't be an increase in consultant's posts.

🤔

https://www.doctors.net.uk/news/uk-medical-graduates-will-be-given-priority-for-nhs-jobs-streeting-says

and

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wes-streeting-government-bma-general-medical-council-labour-b2774826.html

Unfortunately there are a group on here that are arguing against the UK prioritising its own graduates.

More worrying is the misinformation regarding quality of UK medical graduates and medical education in the UK.

This widened into patient safety etc. If they are medical professionals they can report any doctors that they feel are unsafe. In every country there will be doctors like that it is not just the UK and trying to discredit UKMGs is unpleasant and low brow behaviour. These are young people that have worked hard to become doctors.

The most prolific misinformation posts are arguing that we endorce a training post for every UKMG regardless of ability that is untrue. Please see The Independent article where the MP that was a UK ENT consultant in the NHS explains.

This thread is a perfect example of a thread being derailed so a valid topic is lost. We want the UK to prioritise UKMGs like 195 other countries do.

How can the UK justify spending 250k on training doctors then leave them unemployed while recruiting IMGs?

Thanks @PurpleFairyLights. I also want ukmg to be prioritised for all doctor roles in the nhs. Of course only the ones that can win a competition fair and square but that is what you are saying too. I guess I am trying to clarify if that is what Streeting is actually saying re specialty training or whether he is basically saying there will be more F3 type positions available for ukmg who don’t make the cut for specialty training if competing with imgs with all the flaws that brings.

The article in The Independent does not mention F3 jobs only UK MGs to take priority in specialist training.

It seems like trusts are struggling financially so are cutting back on posts rather than expanding them.

I agree we should go back to pre 2019. UKMGs take priority and IMGs able to apply for any unfilled posts but visa granted with a minimum amount of expense and hassle for the IMGs.

Thank you @PurpleFairyLights

Thethingswedoforlove there are clearly going to be changes, with priority being given to UK MGs for certain posts in the NHS. But equally clearly that isn't going to translate into the 12,000 training posts going blithely to the 12,000 UK MGs, which is what mumsneedwine has been advocating for on the various threads (at least until very recently - I'm not clear if she's moved from this position or it's merely that PurpleFairlyLights has underlined that this is not what she herself is advocating for).

The logical consequence of no increase in the consultant posts means that a large number of doctors will get stuck in a bottleneck at some point, and have to tread water, or alternatively find a different career.

Wes Streeting has said he will comment on timing, which posts priority will apply to etc etc in due course.

I don't think a single poster on any thread has expressed a view that no priority should go to UK MGs; all they have done is point out that a merit based system is essential for patient safety and that this has to be the key priority. A number of consultants have also pointed out the enormous contributions that plenty of IMGs have made in this country. This has been criticized as being anti UK (medical graduates, medical education).

Wes Streeting has also made it stunningly clear that he doesn't want to have any more systemic failings in the NHS on his watch and that he wants the NHS to learn from best practice/ brains internationally.

He also refers to UK MGs needing to be able to continue 'to work' in the UK but he's being extremely careful to choose his words. His task is to formulate a policy on what level it makes sense for the bulk of UK MGs to work at. That isn't going to take the vast majority to a consultant post, that much he has been clear on.

Oh I thought they were going ?

Please look at post from poster above.

I think it is being made very clear. The problem is becoming more widely known.It has been in the papers, radio and TV.

I would not want to be a health secretary defending spending 250k to train a doctor who will be unemployed in August.

We would never be so lucky unfortunately. Did you see the pompous request yesterday for me to share the email replies from my emails to MPs? 😂

Now going down rabbit holes again. What a waste of time. This is a different battle (deliberate warfare terminology)

Grey rocks are lovely things. I just don’t read posts that are ridiculous.

This is good from today 😊

Yes, the first of two conflicting motions.

Hardly pompous. Simply saying that if you actually received 'very encouraging' emails from 'several' MPs then you could share them.

Tbf you know and I know what the reality is.

Several posters have bunked out mumsneedwine, and I'm sure that you've read their reasons. I'll go when I choose to do so. Soon probably because I do agree with the brighter posters that this is getting very dull - but notifications keep popping up (thanks, agrees or sometimes my own posts being quoted).

Thanks. I think I may just have been accused of telling tall tales because I refuse to share email responses😂

Why would someone even ask for private emails to be displayed on a public forum?

OP you keep saying things such as 'misinformation which is easy to disprove' then refuse to disprove even one instance of 'misinformation.

The fact that you claim to have received 'several' 'very encouraging' responses in less than twenty four hours from MPs who aren't your own is quite extraordinary, so forgive a request to put your money where your mouth is. MPs are unusually busy atm too, so doubly extraordinary. Of course I wouldn't suggest it if it were a private matter, but it isn't - it's simply a general matter about policy. Not that I feel strongly at all, it's just that you do tend to massively underestimate other posters which is never a good thing.

Two people on this thread persist in the notion that Streeting is going to say that foreign graduates will only be eligible to apply for jobs that UK graduates "don't want". In reality, jobs are readvertised when there are no suitable applicants. Jobs that would previously have gone to foreign graduates, will still go to them.

Consultant and non-GP trainee numbers are ultimately determined by bed numbers and these have been dropping. In England in 2000 there were 194,000 beds, now there are 143,000; bed occupancy this year has been running at 94% (85% is the upper limit of what is manageable). In June 2019 the then Chief Executive of NHS England Sir Simon Stevens said bed numbers were "overly pressurised" and needed to be increased (which they were, but only by 3000). The UK has fewer beds per capita than every country except Mexico, Sweden and Columbia, half as many as France.

The plan now is to put resources into AI, apps, "neighbourhood services" provided by nurses and GPs, and preventative medicine. If you want an idea of how much trouble we are in, listen to this:

www.nhsconfed.org/news/matthew-taylors-keynote-speech-nhs-confedexpo-0

If your daughter is aiming for general practice or intends to convert to law post-graduation and pursue a career as a personal injury lawyer (which would be my recommendation) the future is promising. If she is thinking of a career in hospital medicine then not so much.