Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/07/wes-streeting-attacks-nhs-over-reliance-on-foreign-doctors/

Excellent news @PurpleFairyLights. Good that things might be better next year.

From a v eminent consultant.

The architects of this mess don’t seem to have had any pay erosion.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wes+streeting+speeches&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB921GB921&oq=wes+streeting+sppeches&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCQgBEAAYDRiABDIGCAAQRRg5MgkIARAAGA0YgAQyCAgCEAAYFhgeMggIAxAAGBYYHjIICAQQABgWGB4yCwgFEAAYFhgeGIsDMgsIBhAAGBYYHhiLAzILCAcQABgWGB4YiwMyCwgIEAAYFhgeGIsDMgsICRAAGBYYHhiLA9IBCDk2NjdqMWo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome

For anyone interested in something of significantly more moment than the protectionist pursuit of getting every UK MG a job, regardless of their merit, Wes Streeting's speech given yesterday begins at 32.30 minutes and lasts around 18 minutes.

Awesome isn’t it. Confirming UK grads will get priority.

That isn't mentioned mumsneedwine.

There's literally nothing in what's been said by Wes Streeting that UK MGs will get training regardless of merit. He talks about UK MGs being able to work in the UK but he also isn't indicating that training posts are going to be hugely expanded and he also says that there won't be an expansion of consultant posts. He's also already mentioned that the announcement of timings and which posts any priority will apply to are yet tbc. Not that any of this is addressed in the speech from yesterday which I linked to. But in that speech he certainly seems to be set on the highest standards, merit and learning from clinicians from abroad. The corollary seems fairly clear as to how this will be shaped.

Why is change happening ? Because this will be even worse this year.

Exactly 60,000 applications for 12,000 places.

Why was this not monitored?

Exactly. Sent a lot of emails off to MPs last night. Already received some very encouraging replies.

PurpleFairyLights then you won't mind mind sharing the very encouraging replies will you? Because the MP certainly won't require non disclosure of that sort of communication to a non constituent.

A reply from an MP on a non urgent matter to a non constituent in less than twenty four hours with Westminster being even busier than usual atm?

It would be great to stay grounded on these threads.

Mum's just I just watched it, another rabbit hole.

No idea why a link to an O&G conference regarding maternity services would be linked in a thread about prioritsation of UKMGs....

Instead of piggybacking on a thread about prioritation of UK graduates should start a separate thread.

🤷‍♀️ maternity services are run by midwifes in the UK. Not doctors, so assume this person has an agenda against midwifes.

This thread has become so odd.

If you can't see the blisteringly obvious link between a merit based system for further training beyond F2, and issues of clinical negligence, then I can't help you and indeed very likely no-one can help you.

These threads are breathtakingly narrow. The absolute worst of MN.

The Independent 23rd June 2025

"It should be a reasonable expectation that if you graduate from the UK medical school, you should have a reasonable chance of getting into higher professional training "

"There should be some competition . It shouldn't just be that you automatically progress with no effort, there should be a bit of competition, but the competition ratios have been hugely distorted"

Dr Prinsley MP for Bury St Edmunds

Would be grateful if posters refrain from tangential posts and start their own threads.

This thread is about UK MG unemployment and priority for UKMGs.

This is a thread in AIBU. Many posters feel that yes, you are (four people voted; clearly the majority refrained). And in great part that's because people are trying to explain that we need a merit based system for further training for doctors and why that is. Inevitably, less than competent doctors links to the human consequences of clinical negligence. MN posters' DC getting a training post pales in comparison to some of the accounts about the impact of medical negligence on real lives. Wes Streeting's speech yesterday addressed that directly. It's absolutely relevant to this thread, especially since it was posted in AIBU.

I have absolutely lost the plot on this thread and I didn't work in healthcare till leaving the UK (and still don't entirely understand the UK system; the North American one is simpler), but there is a problem with that argument. One: If there's 60,000 people chasing 12,000 slots, then too many people are coming out of medical school/foundation training; and if that many graduates don't deserve places on merit, then medical schools/foundation training is inadequate. Either one of those things is true, or something else is. It's simply inefficient to train that many medics who have no future. In an ideal world, you want as few doctors as possible to be cut off and you want that done as early as possible. It's flushing scarce resources down the drain to train doctors who won't complete training.

I do recall that there is something of an artificial restriction on the number of doctors allowed to reach consultant grade, but I don't claim to understand it.

FWIW I looked it up and the match rate in the US NRMP is over 90% for US/Canada MD graduates.

@knitnerd9012,000 graduates in the UK are chasing 13,000 jobs, so not inefficient at all. 38,000 applicants from abroad is though.

US gives any spare jobs to IMGs. We don’t. We give them all on the same footing, including the random F1 placements.

There are approx 12000 UK medical graduates that qualify a year. There are approx 12000 training posts a year. The problem is not UK training too many doctors.

The huge increase in applications is due to IMGs being able to apply to UK training places.

UKMGs get into specialty training on merit. To get into UK specialty training a doctor has to do an exam/interview/portfolio (depending on specialty)and have had to have passed your ARCP and got a good reference from a consultant. UKMGs get specialty training places on merit. If not good enough no training place.

The other problem is the application is a points based portfolio system for some specialties which gives IMGs an advantage as they have been doctors longer than the UKMGs who have been doctors for 15 months when applications are made for specialty training via Oriel.

Please read article from The Independent where a UK consultant turned MP explains. What he said is also quoted on a post.

Thank you. There were enough numbers flying about that I got confused. I missed the link so I will have to look back.

No worries unfortunately this thread has experienced a lot of disruption in the form of regularly repeated proveable misinformation by a group of posters.

This has made the thread virtually unreadable for genuine users.