Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Surely patient safety is much more significant than the career aspirations of any group of young people and their household bills and feelings? -

unless of course in you world and are a UKMG and your needs , worries about debt, rights to training above nurses PAs, physios etc ae more important than anyone elses.

Yes patient safety is important to me - hence why in a previous post, I said at times a doctors is better working alongside an experienced nurse, PA versus a very junior doctor who is there learning something for the first time. They will become more useful but in the meantime whilst they become adept at a skill the experienced doctor may just need another experienced pair of hands to facilitate that.

To be fair OP the brief exchange about Brideshead - the subject having been introduced by a third poster who clearly imagined they were being super clever - was to show very starkly just how lacking in understanding mumsneedwine was on a topic she feigned knowledge of. Because that exactly mirrors the situation with medical stuff. Game set and match to me.

What a creepy post and derogatory to mums.

Not half as creepy as making a clearly-intended-to-be-derogatory post about me/ Brideshead. What do you suppose that was intended to convey - bringing Brideshead up out of nowhere?

And hardly 'creepy' of me to explain why I didn't get especially cowed by the comment, and instead simply ran with it. But clearly mumsneedwine wasn't equal to it. Which, as I said, mirrors her grasp of the issues discussed on these threads.

Objectively very fair.

'Surely patient safety is much more significant than the career aspirations of any group of young people and their household bills and feelings?'

Where has anyone suggested that unsafe doctors should be practicing. You seem to be inventing straw man arguments.
I'm struggling to understand why someone who states that they are a UK based Consultant would write something like this.

Should we be striving to protect the medical and nursing professions or not?

Absolutely, we should be protecting the standards of all qualified healthcare professionals. Some have well established regulatory bodies and PAs being relatively new are evolving and need more input to get their regulatory body up to scratch. Does not mean that they should not exist as is said on this thread.

Minimum standards - agenda for change is becoming a race for the lowest band. Nursing associates were the first step to making nurses pay banding worse. If you pay a nurse associate band 3/4 why would you pay a newly qualified less experienced nurse band 5 as a starting pay point. Just nudge then down to band 4 and keep then there for 4 years.

Medical training has been destroyed in recent years , more squeezed into less time and the need to homogenise and box tick at the lowest level to "pass" has sustained a lot of educational PhDs. It is done in the interests of equality and fairness but has not driven higher standards. If you only need 50% to pass then alot of people will not work to get more than 50% - some will but there is no reqard for getting 90% you just get a pass and a nice comment which can not be quantified and is not relevant to the streaming process for job applications.

Surgery is one of those areas where my colleagues notice the difference in a very obvious quantifiable way. That is not to say that the consultants coming out with a CCT are not capable and good but they are significantly less experienced and in a practical apprenticeship that matters. According to my generalsurgical colleagues, 20 yrs ago people finished training with 5000+ operations on their log books, 10 yrs later that was 2000 and today in some specialities that is 1500. Minimum numbers are put in for certain procedures, people get the number ie 50 and think they re sorted. Not appreciating that they are really now only at the point where they learn how to operate and deal with the difficult cases.
Why the reduction - the Government does not want to pay a doctor to get to 5000 because instead of doing 120hrs per week they are doing circa 50 -so training should lengthen not shorten. They argue that the US does it in less time but it is not uncommon for a US Surgeon to only solo in an operation when they are i a cosultant post their own, whereas i the UK we gradually expose people to that massive responsibility of actually operating on someone.

So standards need protecting, not necessarily the right to a job and assessment needs to be fair and meaningful.
Hope that explains my view point

This is a post about doctors as you know. Why do you keep widening the scope to other professions? Why don't you start a thread for them or they can start their own thread.

Stop trying to change your narrative. Now you are having a crack at patient safety.

What has patient safety got to do with UK prioritising UKMG for UK training posts?

Again another attempt at disinformation to undermine our request for the UK to prioritise UKMG for UK training posts.

UK medical education is robust as is the application process for specialty training.

What an utterly weird post. Is this a childish game to you? An attempt to boost your ego by scoring points? This is a serious topic and one worthy of discussion, not a point scoring battle.

And it would be great if you could emphasise that to the two exceptionally rude posters who are dominating this thread. Their rudeness has been pointed out multiple times, by multiple posters.

Again, what purpose was being served by introducing Brideshead out of nowhere. Utterly uncalled for. So don't point any finger at me.

That may be well the case (I've have only very recently come to the thread so I don't know) but it doesn't justify what you wrote.

The entire point is that it more than justifies it. Especially at over twenty pages in of puerile posts.

'Surgery is one of those areas where my colleagues notice the difference in a very obvious quantifiable way. That is not to say that the consultants coming out with a CCT are not capable and good but they are significantly less experienced and in a practical apprenticeship that matters. According to my generalsurgical colleagues, 20 yrs ago people finished training with 5000+ operations on their log books, 10 yrs later that was 2000 and today in some specialities that is 1500. Minimum numbers are put in for certain procedures, people get the number ie 50 and think they re sorted. Not appreciating that they are really now only at the point where they learn how to operate and deal with the difficult cases.
Why the reduction - the Government does not want to pay a doctor to get to 5000 because instead of doing 120hrs per week they are doing circa 50 -so training should lengthen not shorten. They argue that the US does it in less time but it is not uncommon for a US Surgeon to only solo in an operation when they are i a cosultant post their own, whereas i the UK we gradually expose people to that massive responsibility of actually operating on someone.'

This is true but is an entirely different point to what the thread is about and also different to the points you were making previously. As I said earlier, PAs, etc, etc are about reducing budgets. You now seem to be agreeing that quality and time spent training is important.

What a shame that you can't admit that you are in the wrong too.

Oooh insults again 😂😂. You really have lost the argument.

They’ve lost the game and the match, isn’t it lovely to watch.

Doctors. We are here to talk about resident doctors. Others appear to be here to misinform and insult.

Oooh we are puerile now 😂😂

@Sevillian you do know you don’t have to stay and read the puerile’ nonsense ? V strange you’d bother if we are all so stupid

This is not true.

This group that on the attack are always saying we are rude.

I read all my posts and I don't think I have been "exceptionally " rude but we have been fighting a battle against around 6 of you so give as good as we get.

The exaggeration is an attempt to undermine and goad.

Why? No idea but look at the multiple sideshows that pop up all in an attempt to detract from request for UK graduates to be prioritised for traing posts is deemed fit to progress.

Absolutely not lost any argument here mumsneedwine. Very far from it.

And to rainingsnoring: I'm not quite sure that you got that the puerility of my post was precisely to mimic the other poster, whose childishness I've held back from going for for twenty pages or more.

What insult is coming next ????

@Sevillian oh you have. UKGs are getting priority. Good isn’t it ?

Oooh I’m childish now 😂😂😂😂. I’ll add it to the list

As I said before, I think you'll find that the plan is more granular than you'd like.

@Sevillian as I’ve said before I don’t think it will be.

Why are you here?

You add nothing except sneering at people's intellect. Not sure why you think you have the right to judge anything.

All you have done is critise UK doctors and UK medical training.

My personal favourites are the F2s etc should do a PhD to get into specialty training and the accusations of racism.

The last criticism aimed at mums was disgraceful.

You really have lost all credibility and revealed a lot of information you probably did not intend to.

Not one thing you have said has been relevant to UK giving priority to UK graduates.