Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

[PurpleFairyLights]

Following on from previous thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

We have not said every UKMG is ready/should progress to specialty training. We have had to keep pointing this out. You keep saying it does not make it true.
We want UK to prioritise UKMGs that are ready to progress (as evidenced by ARCP and consultant references etc) to be prioritised for UK training posts.

But they are one and the same

Not sure why it’s taken quite so long for us to get here, but it seems that the following is now agreed :

UKG should get priority, if deemed a good enough doctor (most specialities do have quite rigorous application processes already).

Jobs left over should be advertised for IMGs to fill

A PA/ANP/ACP should never be on the doctor rota, should never be trained before a doctor, and should not be operating, anaesthetising or overseeing doctors. Doctors do these things. Want to do them? Go to medical school.

I appreciate that PAs have been successfully deployed in the USA for years. However, the role there is very different from the current version in the UK, with insufficient regulation around the role and significant scope creep. I am surprised that, as a doctor, you do not see the issues around that. Surely patient safety is much more significant than the career aspirations of any group of young people and their household bills and feelings?

@wannabewitch ah you had to revert to the insults. Shame. You don’t agree with me ? Fine, but I have as much right to my opinion as you do. Hope you don’t your staff like this (really hope you respect them enough to not call them useless or junior either).

@Hollibobcat exactly. I have not attacked PAs personally. Or the ones that don’t play doctor. But people have died, hence the Leng review, hence AU vs GMC. It’s v strange that a doctor can’t see that.

PAs could be a valuable resource as the assistant they were supposed to be. Nurses, paramedics etc do an amazing job, and a doctor would not think they could suddenly be one of them. But the other way round ? That’s just fine. As a patient, I want a doctor.

Shame you haven’t cared quite so much about the feelings and career aspirations of resident UK doctors @wannabewitchGood old NHS Be Kind (to anyone but doctors),

Please explain? No idea what you mean.

Mums may be worth reading the post again about the resident doctor especially the update.

@PurpleFairyLights I know they didn’t make the original comment. But at no stage have they supported the need for jobs for UK doctors. And gave at times implied they are often a bit rubbish. Others have been far worse !

There have been some dreadful comments about resident doctors intelligence and ability. Also about UK medical education and recruitment process.

Attempts to undermine is very low brow behaviour.

@PurpleFairyLights but they read Waugh 😂.

It's a shocking situation brought about because of poor planning and erroneous predictions (admittedly these things are difficult). More worryingly, the government doesn't seem to be taking action to deal with this situation.

Perhaps it comes down to whether you believe, in principle, that UKMGrads should be prioritised for the available jobs in their country of training and citizenship or whether healthcare should be 'a market'. A secondary point is that a large percentage of the UMGs currently working in the UK are simply not up to scratch. I've seen multiple examples of this. Some are excellent but some are terrible and should not be working as doctors here. A tertiary point is whether you believe it is justifiable to steal overseas medical from 'third world' countries.

On point 1, I think we should be prioritising our own graduates (against the general theme of the past 25 years of offshoring jobs, etc). On point 3, I think it is not justifiable to steal foreign graduates from countries in need.
What do the people think, especially those who are saying that we need to 'be kind' to foreign graduates and PAs think? Is it reasonable to be unkind to UKgrads and overseas populations?

😂So obviously able to assess the intellect and ability of all doctors in the NHS.

Usually there is radio silence then lots of posts by multiple posters in a very short space of time.

I see. Why do you think that happens?
I haven't been involved in these threads previously.

@wannabewitch “ rather than blindly giving every UKMG a guaranteed job.”

No. No. No. Never said. Not once. And clarified many times. Yet still you persist. Why?

Because they’ve lost the argument. So they lie and insult.

If you have time look at the posts from yesterday directed at me. There are times when there are no posts then a flurry of negative posts from multiple posters all at once.

mums - at no point have I resorted to personal insults which you and a number of others have done all the time. Having to explain my apparently privileged background due to the constant barrage of offensive comments from you and purple - just to justify having an opinion but you still make offensive comments.
You and hollibobs- now criticise my grammarand sneer in posts. For such supposedly empathetic people you seriously are blinkered - have you heard of dyslexia. When will you learn?

UKG should get priority, if deemed a good enough doctor (most specialities do have quite rigorous application processes already). - no one ever disagreed with you in principle but it is never that black and white - just brought qualification to some of your premises with knowledge and experience which you belittled. That to guarantee an FY2 a job simply because they trained in the UK is not the way to develop good doctors.

A PA/ANP/ACP should never be on the doctor rota, should never be trained before a doctor, and should not be operating, anaesthetising or overseeing doctors. Doctors do these things. Want to do them? Go to medical school.

No I do not agree with that statement - once again there is so much nuance. To say training doctors is more important than training all the healthcare workforce is so patronising, arrogant and demonstrates a lack of understanding on what goes to make a good health care professional. I assume by the converse you expect no doctor to be taught by a nurse, physio, OT.

Your putting doctors on a pedestal above all other health care professionals is so antiquated, arrogant and so not what the healthcare world of 2025 is about. Patients have died and been harmed because of mistakes by doctors, nurses, PAs, physios and many other people in the health service.
YOur knowledge of what goes on in the health service is so blinkered, skewed and misses so much.

wotnow -yes every UKMG all 12000 should be given a job ahs been said on many an occasion. Why train them if they have not got employment.

Shame you haven’t cared quite so much about the feelings and career aspirations of resident UK doctors **Good old NHS Be Kind (to anyone but doctors), -
I have and do more than you on a daily basis but hey a few facts would just upset your vitriolic personal attacks on people who are living the reality of actually working in the NHS

I think it is because if they keep posting that disinformation enough people reading the thread will believe we are saying this when we have never said it.

We had the same when I was accused of attacking allied health professionals. I said doctors take more rethan nurses (true) and I don't believe PAs should be in NHS (not alone in that opinion).

I think it is an attempt to discredit anyone that thinks the UK should prioritise UKMG for training posts in the UK. Like every other country in the world does.

I definitely don't want to get involved in personal attacks and have not been following this thread properly. From what I can see, there have been insults thrown around from both sides which detract from the points being made.

I did write a post above which I would be interested to see your response to as you have been extremely prolific on this thread.

This post strikes me as a touch naive. Successive governments (particularly the recent Tory one) have been trying to introduce 'medicine on the cheap' as £££ is one of their chief motivators. Is this a good thing or is it one factor that has led to a reduction in standards, lack of defined roles and responsibilities, confusion on the part of patients, a good excuse for trusts to justify doing things on the cheap, etc? Should we be striving to protect the medical and nursing professions or not?

We have not said this. We want all UK graduates that are are deemed fit to progress to be given priority for training in the UK.

I repeat

We have not said this. We want all UK graduates that are deemed fit to progress to be given priority for training in the UK.

Stop trying to discredit those that want the UK to prioritise UK graduates for NHS training.

It is not very becoming and quite concerning.

No it hasn’t! That’s just not true!